john lobb
For the record, not every pair of John Lobb shoes are the cost of a used Volvo. You can get a very respectable pair of bench made, Goodyear welted Lobbs for 4 to 600. They will easily last you twenty years if you take care of them, and resole them as needed. Same for Tricker's and Church's of England, Testoni of Italy, and Alden or Lefcourt of NY. Any details that surpass the finishing of these fine shoes and places them in an eschelon of several thousand dollars is truly beyond my detection as a lowly old sole.
On this note, I read recently where it's become almost impossible for shoemakers in America to make a quality product thanks to the American fascination with disposable bargains. So I vote: Do the economy and the environment a favor folks -- spend your tax returns on a fine pair of bench made trampers that'll last you a lifetime!
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I like poor people too, perhaps thats vanity 🙂
I hear you about the shoes, unfortuantely its all about fashion, it even extends to watches. The recent trend for these huge rounded rectangular watches with very wide straps (silly looking things) I didn't know a lot of people owned 3 or 4 watches, crazy! I've got a good seiko automatic and that its.
Who needs 3 watches?
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One last post on Fritz Hansen from me, I actually checked out what they have to say about the pk31 (chrome plated steel, who woulda thunk it) and overall its a rich site, lots of free info (love the cad files) and good images.
They have a magazine too, here is the online version.
http://www.e-pages.dk/fritzhansen/2/
My Post
wasnt qualifying why the PK sofa costs 30k - just exploring the idea of luxury as a practice. Could the Lobb shoes possibly be THAT much more comfortable than a well made pair of production shoes? Probably not - at a certain point the luxury becomes about purchasing luxury.
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I'm not sure if I regret or am happy with ever mentioning the word 'luxury' but thanks to everyone, including finch 🙂 for responding, at least it got some brains working.
Lying in bed last night I was thinking about privacy and convenience, I hope no-one regards these thoughts as not related to design, I believe they are...but anyway, thanks again, Heath
Dear Lucifersum:
Very above you said:""" Well I was at a party recently and I asked a gentleman how he had spent the weekend. Well...he'd wanted a good bottle of wine, so he got on his jet and flew to Napa, then shot down to Puerto Rico, and then over to Costa Rica, then back to the east coast. He also owns a Bentley and lives in a mansion on a mountain in which he installed the ballroom of a French chateau and his collection of BC Roman marbles. Need I say more? """.
Yes, you need to me, this is what defines luxurity to you?
or just richness?
How it was?
-Nice to met you.
-Nice to met you.
-What did you do last weekend?
-Well...I wanted a good bottle of wine, so I got on my jet and flew to Napa, then shot down to Puerto Rico, and then over to Costa Rica, then back to the east coast.
Not luxurity to me, This is what we call "bad taste".
The luxurity there was on the plusure or the need to tell others how rich they are.
Is this luxurity to you?
From what I can tell,
most people who can really afford high-end luxury are usually the kind of person who buys an item because it's a status symbol and because other people will judge them by the items they have. I'm not even sure that when Steve Wynne, that super rich Las Vegas hotel owner, shows the world his real Picasso painting, I cannot be sure he owns it because he loves it or he owns it because it's a status symbol.
Most (if not all) of the people who view his forum love good, high quality design. I doubt if many of us could afford to own original expensive artwork, or a $20,000.00 sofa, or a $100,000.00 automobile.
75% of the good stuff I own was found in junk shops or bought on eBay in less than mint condition. I am lucky to own a couple of George Nelson chests of drawers, but they both need refinishing.
My Grasshopper chair and ottoman had to be reupholstered. Same goes for my Saarinen stool.
However, now i am trying to find a nice sofa and because it will be such a centerpiece in my living room, I don't want a piece of crap. I am unwilling to spend $7,000.00 for an Eames 2-seat sofa (I think!).
So I want luxury and good design at bargain prices....and I think that's the way most of us feel.
I am not jealous of a person who goes out any buys a $20,000.00 sofa; I think they're nuts and have been ripped off.
But then, that just shows how we want great stuff without having to get a mortgage for buy it!
Gustavo and Barry
Gustavo - believe it or not the conversation did go something along those lines. LOL. The topic of luxury centers around those things that we define as necessary and those things which are not. By strict definition, the only things we all NEED are water, food, shelter, and clothing. Generally in that order. Discussions of luxury are tricky as this thread has proven because everyone has their own definitions of what exactly is 'necessary'. Its kind of like the old adage about driving: The people driving slower than me are idiots, the people driving faster than me are lunatics.
Do I think the aformentioned gentlemans jaunt was excessive? Sure - by my standards. But by his standards it was an obtainable and natural exertion of his wealth. The purpose of luxury is to offer something to those with enough money to buy it. Barry has a small collection of modern furniture for which he has spent an amount of money. This gentleman has a small collection of Roman marble statuary for which he has spent an amount of money. The only real difference is that one person has the means to afford a much higher price point than the other.
And Barry, I was just poking around the DDC website and saw a number of sofas for 30k +. None by extraordinarily famous designers - so is the status symbol for public purposes (a Louis Vuitton bag with the LV symbol stamped ad nauseum across it) or for personal enjoyment (a fine piece of artwork kept in a private study)
Let me reiterate that I'm not saying that I endorse the methods/practices of luxury goods and consumerism - but i think lots in this thread write it off too easily as "rich snobs controlled by branding"
An interesting article below mentions briefly the idea of luxury as an experience, rather than simply a product.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124394.html
Email and response from Fritz Hansen
I wrote:
Hello. I'm in the market for a nice sofa and I was looking at Hive Modern, one of the good websites that carry your furniture side-by-side with Herman Miller and Knoll, and i was shocked at the price for the PK31 3-seat sofa. I think your pricing has a lot to do with the people knocking off your products. I personally would only buy an original product, but your prices put my buying a Fritz Hansen sofa quite out of the question. Why would I spend $20,000.00 for your sofa when I can buy a Florence Knoll for $10,000.00 or even an Eames Sofa for $8,000.00? All three are beautifully made and are are all classics of equal quality. Finally, your excellent website SHOULD show the U.S. websites like Hive Modern or Retromodern who are distributors of your products.
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Their response;
We do agree that Vitra; Knoll; and Herman Miller all make some fantastic products with outstanding quality and reputation. In most cases we have products within our collection that meet the same pricing category; considering all three design collections are within the high end sector of the design furniture markets. In no way would we want to; nor need to discredit one fine collection to encourage the focus on the Fritz Hansen Brand. I would like to give you a few points on the PK collection in general and the PK 31 specifically to help you in understanding at least where the pricing comes from and the actual value that one receives when purchasing something within our collection.
The PK collection is hand made and finished by craftsmen. The tooling and finishing of the solid spring steel components all with custom dimensions; finish and edge detailing is only one area of interest when it comes to quality and of course price. The metal components are not from stock spring steel so the custom and hand crafting begins at the mill; and not from stock inventory pieces. Fritz Hansen does this to insure we meet the quality as well as the exact design representation of Poul himself. Now to the leather; all double thick; hand cut; hand stitched and of only the highest quality hides to insure the furniture you own is within the standards of our great brand and within the guidelines of the exact specifications still managed by Poul wife. We are not using chromed steel parts to look like; but are not what was part of the designers true inspiration; stitching is not via a large factory within an assembly line program; so you are still buying what was intended from the designer when he first put pen to paper.
Thanks for your interest and if you wish you can contact me directly to further discuss and for aid in buying the PK 31. I greatly appreciate your inertest.
Best Regards
Glenn Ludwig
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Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....seems he thinks that the Florence Knoll Sofa and the Eames sofa are somehow made more cheaply and only Fritz Hansen makes their sofa from hand....
Barry
The Knoll and HM sofa are not necessarily made 'more cheaply', but rather made in a way that doesnt involve so much hand labor, and therefore so much extra costs. You asked a pretty straightforward question: Why does this cost more than these two? The answer was equally straightforward - "These two products are great, ours is better - here's why, its ALL made by hand."
And of course Fritz Hansen is going to push their product over HM & Knoll, especially given the tone of your letter.
Other options
Barry, if you're still looking for a sofa I've pulled some links from Domus Design Collection-NYC for your perusal. What do you think?
http://www.ddcnyc.com/product.php?id=247468&cat=seating&subcat=sofas/sec... (check the price range!)
http://www.ddcnyc.com/product.php?id=151844&cat=seating&subcat=sofas/sec...
http://www.ddcnyc.com/product.php?id=152108&cat=seating&subcat=sofas/sec...
On a more serious note, they have a sofa sort of similar to the one you've been eyeing: http://www.ddcnyc.com/product.php?id=152420&cat=seating&subcat=sofas/sec...
If you need any help, please contact us at – info@designaddict.com