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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
02/03/2008 8:00 pm  

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of course its overpriced, I agree.
But don't you want to find out why? And relative to what olass of people, or when this sort of marketing began?
I'm really not trying to be difficult, honestly.
So compared to a Knoll or HM offering this PK is the most expensive, pegging the three in a heirachy of desirability it would have to go I think ...
FH
Knoll
HM
I'm terrible with money but my guess is FH have decided to make half as many sofas and maintain profits by effectively doubling the price, this would free up their skilled workers for other products.
The pricing strategy of the other two, I'm too tired to think about.


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barrympls
(@barrympls)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2649
02/03/2008 9:34 pm  

Cool, Heath
I decided I really want to get a beautiful iconic 2-seater to finish off my living room (I have an Aalto Zebra 400 tank chair and a Saarinen Grasshopper chair and Ottoman, as well as newly recovered Eames LaFonda chair with Eames Crosspatch Spring upholostery, so I naturally thought of either an;
Eames Sofa - first choice
Florence Knoll - second choice
Poul Kjaerholm - third choice
I was crabbing at having to spend $7,000 for the Eames sofa and when i saw the price on the Kjaerholm, I couldn't believe anyone had the nerve to charge so much for a currently made sofa!
At least the Eames sofa in leather by default; one has to add $1300.00 to the price of either of the other two for leather.
I guess they think they're market is down to the super rich lawyers' offices!


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koen
 koen
(@koen)
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Posts: 2054
02/03/2008 11:15 pm  

My dear azure friend
You do not need my input on this to know that the product is wildly overpriced. Yes I could give you a breakdown on the components and give reasonable costs and subsequently apply trade margins and commisions and yet one would come to the conclusion that the quoted price is reasonable in danish kronor and largely overpriced in dollars.(In Danish kronor it would be around US$ 7.000).
It is a wild guess to understand what the people at Fritz Hansen are thinking. It might vary from: let's do something for the environment and put a firm break on all consumption, especially when leather and stainless steel is concerned...to: Those who can pay 8.000 can also pay 18.000 so...let's go for it!
The truth is somewhere hidden within the four walls of a Danish office...but it is not simple. The relationship between Poul Kjaerholm and Fritz Hansen was a complicated one and different from the relationship between Fritz Hansen and the Kjaerholm family. There are several reasons why they did not even consider producing any of them before his unexpected and tragic death. Of course E. Kold Christensen produced them before Fritz Hansen, but in this context he was hardly a manufacturer and more of an excellent maker of prototypes and small series. The switch from Christensen to Hansen could have been made during Kjaerholm's lifetime...as I said, it is more complicated than one would expect.


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barrympls
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Posts: 2649
02/03/2008 11:24 pm  

Koen...you're probably right
but by just comparing what Fritz Hansen charges to similar, high quality, well designed iconic sofas, like:
Cassina's La Courbusier grand sofa - 2 seater
Herman Miller's 1984 Eames sofa - 2 seater
Knoll's Florence Knoll sofa - setee
it becomes clear that although all of the these excellent sofas are directed to the same consumer and business customer, the sofa from Fritz Hansen is twice the price of any of the above.
I can't believe that it's solely due to currency conversion or royalty to the Kjaerholm family. I suspect that Fritz Hansen is price gouging.
In any event, I wouldn't (and couldn't) dream of spending 20 grand for a bloody sofa(!); I'm going to have enough trouble spending 7 grand for the Eames sofa!


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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
03/03/2008 12:30 am  

.
just so that people know what it is that Barry is interested in.
Puts my $95.00 sofa in the shade, How about the Jacobsen 3300, I think its still quite expensive though.


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LuciferSum
(@lucifersum)
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Posts: 1874
03/03/2008 1:49 am  

Barry
Sometimes inflection gets lost in text, and I am certainly not trying to sound condescending or rude. But, the sofas you list and the PK31 are NOT intended for the same market.
Class and commodity are defined by layers. Very often, when you occupy one layer, you compress all of the others into one. However - there will always be a tier above. Again, not trying to be rude - you and I probably occupy similar tiers- but there are faaaaar more tiers above us than you might think.
Luxury is a funny thing. I'm sure Barry, that many of the things you and I do on a regular basis would be considered 'luxuries' by those less fortunate than us. I spend $5 a day for my morning coffee and $600 on a plywood chair. To the person going to Dunkin Donuts, or Ikea those prices seem outrageous - and really... can the quality be THAT much better?
Now, I agree with Koen, that materials and manufacturing can only go so far in explaining the price of something. After that comes the genius of marketing. And clearly FH knows that if they produce this couch for 30k, they can sell it. Good for them.
As to what kind of person would buy such a sofa? Well I was at a party recently and I asked a gentleman how he had spent the weekend. Well...he'd wanted a good bottle of wine, so he got on his jet and flew to Napa, then shot down to Puerto Rico, and then over to Costa Rica, then back to the east coast. He also owns a Bentley and lives in a mansion on a mountain in which he installed the ballroom of a French chateau and his collection of BC Roman marbles. Need I say more?
At a certain point luxury becomes ABOUT luxury - not any kind of quality or recognition...simply because you can.


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barrympls
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03/03/2008 2:28 am  

OK, Lucifer
It's apparent that the Fritz sofa is intended for the Porsche crowd and the lowly Knoll and Eames sofa are the Buick set, but gosh, the PK31 sure looks like a cross between the Jacobsen and the Knoll sofas!
Actually the Eames sofa moving on up in price too, but if you select one of the default leather colors (mostly drab in color choices) then it's still more affordable than any of the above and still darn beautiful and well made.
What I want is a Porsche at Kia prices!
Dream on.


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LuciferSum
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03/03/2008 3:00 am  

Nope
Not even the Porsche crowd Barry. We're talking Maybachs, Ferraris, Bentleys, Alpha Romeros, and Maseratis. We're talking houses-plural. And not like, a little cottage up in Maine - how about a house in Aspen, a house in Viterbo, a house on Commonwealth Avenue, and a little place on the Vineyard. (At least thats how it runs down Boston style)


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James-2
(@james-2)
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Posts: 472
03/03/2008 9:39 am  

For the price of the PK31...
For the price of the PK31 you could get one of almost every classic re-edition made today. Try a compact Honda, Eames Lounge chair/ottoman, Womb chair, Noguchi coffee table, a couple Vitra Nelson clocks, and a sofa costing around $4,000. I'd like to see if someone bought the PK31 and changed their mind a year later, what would it go for on the secondary market.


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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
03/03/2008 9:54 am  

.
not much comment on what the sofa actually looks like.
I like the look but becuase I find it a bit comic, it looks as though it belongs on a film set... 1970's, some coke, a gigolo, possibly Elliot Gould. I'd hate to look under the cushions.
Do Lange furniture represented on here do anything similar by way of Fabricius + Kastholm?


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azurechicken (USA)
(@azurechicken-usa)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1966
03/03/2008 4:43 pm  

.
Heath,I abhor the sharp angle under the arms,so unrelated to the total,the legs:a bent,complex forest,why?James points out,you can get a number of quite nice things for the price of this single sofa.Seeing it,and despite input from various DAers,it remains inexplicably expensive...


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LuciferSum
(@lucifersum)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1874
04/03/2008 3:04 am  

Doesnt
I like a lot of Kjaerholm's work (and deeply covet a PK22) but I'm not totally loving the couch. In terms of materiality Kjaerholm's steel is remarkably hefty - like the feel of a silver dollar when you're used to holding quarters. In some of his other pieces there is a distinct contrast of materials - the spring steel with the sleek leather sling perched upon it, or even better, the oddly rustic wicker on such a minimal piece. Even his benches (see below) contrast a luxurious pad of tufted leather ala Barcelona, against the rigid and right-angled frame.
But the sofa doesnt seem to fit. Anyone know the story of it? I'm admittedly a little in the dark on PK other than his chairs.


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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
04/03/2008 3:37 am  

.
yeah I've noticed the steel on the pk stuff, I've never lifted a chair so don't know the weight, but what I do like about it is that some of it seems to have very nicely radiused edge, compared to Mies' razor sharp edges.
I don't know what grade FH uses, just 312 or 316 I imagine but it would be interesting to know if they put the radius on or order it like that, from limited experience I know that any special ordering of steel is horrifyingly expensive, this might go some way to explaining FH prices and the world price of steel atm is mad, thanks China.
The picture of the man himself reclining in this link is very sweet.
http://www.arcspace.com/exhibitions/kjaerholm/louisiana.html


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azurechicken (USA)
(@azurechicken-usa)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1966
04/03/2008 7:22 am  

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PK19 is as fine as any folding stool by any designer ,my ex in the mid 70s had the caned armless chair and it was very heavy,perfection in construction and materials...


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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
04/03/2008 9:07 am  

.
its good to know those chairs are probably still extant after all these years, only 30 or so but still, the majority of furniture produced in 1976 is probably landfill by now.
the 70's *sigh*, I missed out, we got aids and global warming, you guys got all the fun.


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