Yes. Well. It's good to have the numbers, to support an evident trend. Thank you for taking the trouble, fstfwd.
Now -- Why ?
I just re-read Mark's last opus (see "off topic"). Will there be no more levity, no more online friendship, at DA ?
I can say that I saw a similar thing happen following the redesign of two other international design sites, Seattle's Design Community and New York/LA's Archinect. The readership -- or at least the forum portions of the sites, fell off dramatically and have not recovered. The arguably improved -- or anyway, changed -- graphics and/or layout and/or functionality didn't seem to result in broader use, for some reason, and the "frequent fliers" seemed to drift away.
I'd say that Design Addict is still going strong, and that the redesign really did improve the experience in tangible ways, at least. So, what happened ? Is there really such a delicate sense of familiar habitat attached to the blogging experience that any change in that habitat is like playing with fire ?
Here, for a while before the change, regulars noted and commented upon the fact that more and more new members seemed interested only in identification help; the balance had already begun to shift, as I recall it (which surprisingly is not necessarily supported by fstfwd's research). But the revamp seems to have had the effect (if it is not completely coincidental) of accelerating that movement, bringing in a new order.
I have no quibble with the collecting and commerce side of the "business," and it cannot be said that the modern-furniture collectors' marketplace is not enhanced for all by the very well-conceived and executed new format. And Patrick and Alix seem to have done everything possible to improve the forum function as well, with departments and editing and image-posting enhancements that are unequaled in my experience.
So . . . what ? Any ideas ? New members and old, what do we think ?
I think the problem is that the general, of topic, bizarre, and funny threads are so few. And so few snappies. We need to see more of Aunt Mark.
It is tempting to say that there are too many ID threads. I find myself occasionally annoyed with the sheer number of ugly ones. But I enjoy the mystery of the occasional ID of a piece I like to look at. So I don't think this is the problem. It is the decrease in the rest.
SDR and fastfwd: do you find less here to comment on lately? Or do you find yourselves checking DA less frequently? Or has the former led to the latter in a vicious circle?
I must admit that the former has led to the latter, for me.
I do appreciate getting an e-mail notice every time a thread I'm watching gets a new comment. One of the losses at Archinect is that, with the new format, a poster has to remember to select "notify me" on each post; one tends to forget this when formerly the notification was automatic.
(I'm wondering why, at DA now, I must often log in to the site when I visit and wish to post. This was not formerly the case -- though I did have to include my e-mail each time I posted, so perhaps it's a wash . . . ?)
For me, it used to be easy to visit the forum, scan for interesting topics, read them, and post a reply if I had something to say. Now the interaction has a lot more friction; the redesign made everything more difficult.
I hate:
1 The trendy super-low-contrast grey-on-grey text, which is an insult to every DA reader who's forced to squint at it.
2. The smaller typeface, ditto.
3. The inefficiency of the topic list. On my screen, the old design would show the most recent 15+ topics without scrolling; the new one shows 4.
4. The 50-post-per-page limit, which perversely causes the most-interesting topics to also be the most difficult to read.
5. The segregation of "General", "Identification", "Repair", and "Off Topic" threads. What we had before was like a real gathering of people: Everyone in one room, conversations on various topics all around, one topic flowing into another, etc. It was like a cocktail party. What we have now is like... well, I don't know, but it isn't much fun.
6. The overall slowness of the site since the redesign. It used to be snappy and responsive; now every page takes forever to load.
But whatever. Patrick and Alix have worked hard on the site, and I haven't paid one penny to use it, so I don't want to complain any more.
Hello everybody,
We are always interested in your feedback and attentive to your concerns.
First of all we must clarify that the graphic that starts this thread seems curious to say the least. fastfwd ... could you explain how you have generated it? The distinction between ‘general' and 'identifications' threads did not exist before September 21 2014 so it seems impossible to make any credible comparison between the new and the old versions. Only the variations since the launch of the new version may be verified.
There are no notable decline in the use of the forum as what is shown above but the identification threads is naturally on the increase from the more general discussions that are down. All the regulars have probably noticed.
Regarding this identifications increase: It does not bother us in substance, as Leif, we often find it interesting. It is a source of permanent education, which often allows to discover items one did not know and deepens our knowledge thanks to the incredible competence of some of you.
What saddens us most is the decline in the number of informal discussion on various topics about design, architecture and art. We have already said many times, the creation of the "off topic" section is not intended to prevent deliciously crazy threads that have entertained us all these years. They always have their place in the "general discussions" even with more or less serious digressions! We hoped, instead, to see in the "Off Topic" section a totally new kind of discussions on subjects completely different and really completely "off topic".
Mark’s best cocktail recipes, for example, or any other discussions about your passions outside the design, architecture or art field.
Note that the separation into different forums was the main claim that emerged when we asked for your opinion before the launch of the new version. So, today it is still possible to see all the content on the forum’s homepage or go directly to a particular section. It seems difficult to respond better to the divergent desires of all users.
To be continued…
Answers to your questions and comments:
tchp:
"I would guess that the increased ease of uploading images directly to the forum (without using a hosting site) would have some bearing on an increase in ID threads."
You may be right but the increased ease of uploading pictures on the forum should also benefit the other sections apart from the identifications. Don’t you think so? In addition to a simplified use, another advantage is that the images now remain on the website. It was sometimes frustrating that interesting old threads were no longer understandable because some images that were hosted on a free hosting service were no longer available.
SDR:
Yes, Previously it was necessary to log in for each message posted. An identification for each session is already an improvement. But it’s not normal that you have to log in often. Normally, if you don’t choose to log out, you should stay logged in. This is the case for us here anyway. We will talk about it to Matthieu, our Web Developer. Other members have encountered this problem?
Fastfwd:
« Now the interaction has a lot more friction; the redesign made everything more difficult. »
To be frank, we find this comment a little unfair. Of course, you are free to think it and express it here. But it saddens us a little after all the work done to improve the site that some of you don’t appreciate our efforts.
Let's try to answer your comments step by step:
1."The trendy super-low-contrast grey-on-grey text, which is an insult to every DA reader who's forced to squint at it."
We don’t understand that. The text of the forum is dark gray on a white background. Is it not what you see? Could you send us screenshots of your screen ?
2. "The smaller typeface, ditto."
Following the numerous comments on this subject at the launch of the new version, we quickly increased the font size to return to a size equivalent to that of the old version. However, as the new site is designed to adapt to different screen formats (responsive design), you must make sure that the page fits well the entire width of your screen. If you don’t do this, the system assumes you're using a smaller screen and adapts the format of the text by reducing it.
3. "The inefficiency of the topic list. On my screen, the old design would show the most recent 15+ topics without scrolling; the new one shows 4."
Not certain that one saw 15 before. But yes one has to scroll a little bit to see the whole list of recent threads.
4. "The 50-post-per-page limit, which perversely causes the most-interesting topics to also be the most difficult to read."
The very long threads were taking forever to open because the pages were becoming too heavy. Demand for long threads split into different pages was part of the recurring demands of users. Furthermore, by using the "first unread" function you can go directly to where you had stopped your reading of posts (without going through all the intermediate posts). We use this feature all the time and find it very convenient.
5. "The segregation of "General", "Identification", "Repair", and "Off Topic" threads. What we had before was like a real gathering of people: Everyone in one room, conversations on various topics all around, one topic flowing into another, etc. It was like a cocktail party. What we have now is like... well, I don't know, but it isn't much fun."
Again, the possibility of avoiding certain threads (mainly identifications) was claimed by many users. But if you go to the Forum’s homepage you still have the access to all the mixed threads, as before.
6. "The overall slowness of the site since the redesign. It used to be snappy and responsive; now every page takes forever to load."
You are right! We are very frustrated by this also. We are taking care of this, we have asked to fix this problem. A strong improvement should happen very soon. Leif: We encounter some unexpected trouble with the installation of the Boost Module. Did you ever use it? (you can respond offline not to bother our friends with technical considerations) Hope this answers somewhat your questions ...
Obviously it is very difficulty to meet the expectations of all. But we constantly strive to find the right balance.
To be continued…
Fastfwd, to address your comments:
1 The trendy super-low-contrast grey-on-grey text, which is an insult to every DA reader who's forced to squint at it.
2. The smaller typeface, ditto.
The low contrast can be minimized by increasing the brightness of your screen to the maximum level. My Mac has a key for this in the top row---dunno how other computers do it but I do know it's possible on any device.
The size is easily changed by CTRL+ or CTRL- . I do CTRL+ on sites all the time to where i can read it easily.
Apologies if you already have done these steps.
3. The inefficiency of the topic list. On my screen, the old design would show the most recent 15+ topics without scrolling; the new one shows 4.
Mine shows only three; if I make the typeface smaller with CTRL-, I see four but then the type is annoyingly small. Having to scroll doesn't bother me much; it's easy to do on the fingerpad on a Mac. If I used a mouse, I'd find it really annoying but that's why I don't use a mouse! Har. Arrow keys make it pretty painless.
4. The 50-post-per-page limit, which perversely causes the most-interesting topics to also be the most difficult to read.
Totally agree, but this is where the "first unread" link comes into play. No more having to scroll until you come to where you left off last time you read the thread. I think this is the single best feature of the new forum design. It'll skip you past entire pages if you've already read them.
Again, apologies if this isn't what you're talking about but it sounds to me like it is.
5. The segregation of "General", "Identification", "Repair", and "Off Topic" threads. What we had before was like a real gathering of people: Everyone in one room, conversations on various topics all around, one topic flowing into another, etc. It was like a cocktail party. What we have now is like... well, I don't know, but it isn't much fun.
I see all threads at once; seems like this is something I opted for when I first looked at the new forum...? I can't remember now.
6. The overall slowness of the site since the redesign. It used to be snappy and responsive; now every page takes forever to load.
Could this be your browser? Mine loads just as fast. I use Chrome browser with high speed internet service, which is fast but not the fastest.
I miss the crazy, fun stuff a lot but I think this has to do with a few key people not being around as much for whatever reasons. Maybe the segregation of topics is one of the reasons they've drifted away, but again, it seems like it's possible to see all topics at once since that's what I get when I come here.
After the observations, let’s try to find solutions to this evolution.
We don't think that it’s through a new extensive change of the forum’s structure that we can change this.
Above all, everyone should feel free to launch more diverse discussions. We are not naughty censors who want to restrict the scope of discussions. This forum is yours, feel free and make good use of it!
On our side, we would gladly read more threads related to other subjects than furniture. The range of objects created by top designers of the twentieth century is very large and there are many areas that are relatively little discussed on DA (appliance, cars, fashion, graphic design ...).
If we share with others a special fascination for Scandinavian design, it would also be interesting to cover the whole of the international production. Why not start threads on design of other countries (Italy, UK, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, Brazil ...) there is still so much to discover, reveal, to share.
A different lead would be to host contributors to the Blog. Comments and discussions on the posts could be redirected to the "general discussion" forum section.
If someone wants to write content for the blog, please feel free to contact us!
Your other ideas are welcome ...
Patrick and Alix,
I have no problem with the type face or color.
I appreciate finding new (to me) items on this forum. The last being the Jorgen Bloch Rope Lion for Den Permanente.
Attempts to circumvent the valuation or selling rules are not appreciated. The "rare or prototypical" pedestrian items requesting information is proof that there is something for the dreamer.
As long as you guys continue to meet with success in the "buy and sell" category I have no reason to believe you will not run a successful forum.
Congratulations
Thanks Spanky and Niceguy.
A more personal note:
Often I (Patrick) feel guilty of not being able to contribute more to the forum. The evolution of the site and the workload which increases constantly leaves little free time to intervene regularly in the forum.
I find it even more difficult to initiate new discussions, for another more pragmatic reason. My English is very limitated. Yes, I know ... It's difficulty to believe. But when we first launched the website, I did not understand or spook a word of English. Of course, today I can read everything and fortunately, I fully understand everything that is said in the forum, but I don't write and don't speak fluent English. Therefore, each of my intervention must be translated from French by Alix. You will understand that I can't possibly ask her to add this to the very loooong list of tasks that she must perform each day to operate DA (365 days per year since 1998).
Another reason is related to the diversity of my activities. I'm a creative person who needs to express himself in lots of different areas. These last years I pursued, in parallel to DA, projects in the following fields: product and interior design, architecture, urban planning and art, of course. Maybe I should open a thread to share all this with you?
The combination of all these activities has had some effect on my health. Nothing major, I'm fine now! But it was a clear enough signal to make me slow down the pace. This explains why we are less present than before on the forum! We read all the threads, but it is difficult to be more active now.
As an old contributor on here (changed name with redesign) I have to agree with ffwd about the new site. The old site was clunky as hell but I still prefer it to what we have now. The sheer greyness and slowness just don't make me want to hang around anymore. And where have all those lovely lovely maniacs gone? That guy with the maybe bertoia sculpture and barry whatsisname and that george nelson for arbuck thread. Happy days. Now its just one id my piece of shit thread after another .
I am sorry to say that i am with fastfwd on this.
Your 6 points express exactly why i dont log on here as often as i used to.
Sometimes simpler is better...
But on the other hand i feel a bit sorry for Patrick and Alix that i know did the change to make it better and have most likely worked very hard to make it happen.
Maybe its a personal preference that me and fastfwd share, but i do not like it the way it is now.
Interesting comments all. As many of the specific complaints seem readily answered by Patrick, perhaps part of the problem is simply that any change is troubling on some level, for a time at least, to many users -- and that the upset can too easily lead to declining usage ?
A different phenomenon was reported, years ago, by a firm seeking to discover whether increased light levels in a factory could enhance production. Each time a change was made -- either with more light, or less -- production rose, for a while at least. It seems the workers appreciated any attention to their working conditions . . . !
I admit I haven't sought out all the new features, here; I'll be using "first unread" now, for instance ! And there's no way that the administrators or anyone else can invoke interesting discussion; it just has to arise from an interested readership. Perhaps this frank discussion will mark the beginning of a change ?
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