...and now a rebuttal from a 1stdibs dealer
I've just read through this thread, and I have so many points, I don't know where to begin. Firstly, I want to state that I am speaking for those 1stdibs stores (predominately the ones in NYC, LA, and to a certain extent, Chicago)that aspire to be spare-no-expense temples of the best of design. These are truly curated galleries, where buyers scour the world for unique, wonderful objects, and gladly pay whatever it costs (ie they shop at christies, or pay retail at other stores, or buy from estates of wealthy collectors, as well ebay, thrift shops, and flea markets)to ensure that they always have a uniformly incredible selection. Then each item is lavished with the highest level of restoration. If an object needs french polishing, it gets french-polished. If $150 a yard silk velvet is warrented, it is used. If ebay occasionally turns up a great bargain, that is wonderful. But no store of this caliber relies on ebay for generating great inventory...it's one little piece of the project. And that great $375 ebay steal usually ends up costing the dealer $2000 after shipping and restoration.
Now, about pricing. Pricing is a very complicated art, but I would like to make one or two points. Good curated galleries really try to focus on having a tightly edited collection that says something about the store and distinguishes it from other retailers. We are therefore really choosey about what we buy. It's not enough that an object be a collectible or rare or beautiful. It has to make sense in the context of what we sell. It is therefore a long and laborious process to build up inventory. In addition to providing us with an income, pricing is the basic control we have at pacing the rate of sales. If objects are priced too low (even if the mark-up in absolut terms is huge), they sell too quickly, and we run out of inventory before it can be replaced. If it is too expensive (even if, relative to what we invested, it is not marked up much) and sells too slowly, a cash-flow crisis can occur, which limits our buying potential and is generally scary and awful. Additionally, it is important that merchandise always remain fresh, so consistent turnover is important. The prices you see on 1stdibs reflects a combination of the investment made in the inventory, and what we need to charge to keep things selling at the rate we need them to. Depending on the time of year, the level of wall street bonus, and other factors, prices necessarily fluctuate a bit to compensate for the contingencies of the moment (...ask for a better price. Some weeks or months you'll get it).
And regarding ebay...Ebay is fun and great, but ebay is not the yardstick of value. Ebay pricing includes a 'buyer beware' discount. And considering you are buying without prior inspection, it can actually be quite expensive. Dealers, on the other hand, are selling reputation, trust, and scholarship along with the merchandise. OK...now tear me apart.
I have spent
a decade in the fashion industry, and nearly a decade in the design trade.
I wholeheartedly agree with you 100%.
This demographic expects a different level of service, and their expectations create a whole different ball game.
And as the saying goes "don't hate the player(s), hate the game".
players
I think the players make the game in this case, so it is, in fact, correct to hate the players.
That said, firstdibs only exists on the www and can be blocked from view by putting it into the forbidden zone of your web browser. Easy to do and advisable.
I have two issues with firstdibs. 1) The lazy factor and 2) pricing as it misinterprets value and worth. It is all too easy to put something on a website with a photo and give it some ridiculous price with option to buy. And easy for a buyer to turn on firstdibs and buy it. It makes both the dealer and customer lazy because in this world worthwhile things are not EASY to find, buy or sell. There is a whole process that firstdibs seeks to avoid: education, introduction, context, rationale... It seeks to make buyers less educated by lazily presenting objects for transaction.
On the site, dealers list totally insignificant upholstered american furniture with prices arbitrarily high. In these listings it is only the pricing that is interesting. It is an unfortunate method as it skews the impression of what is worthwhile and worth looking at/considering. In the descriptions where a case can be made, there is only mention of a mediocre and similarly insignificant american furniture manufacturer. So, in fact, these dealers are wasting the market's time, selling kind-of-OK junk as a collectible. A previous post in this thread from a dealer indicated that so-much cost for research, scouting and restoration was added to the price, justifying... I don't see that on firstdibs. What I see are publicly auctioned items listed one week after auction at 4x price, not restored, frequently even the auction house image is used. Very lazy. There are Nakashima pieces listed that are completely irrelevant or not even authentic with totally unsophisticated descriptions indicating zero education or dealer value-add. At least many Ebay sellers know what they are selling and are willing to let the market decide the value. I think Ebay is more reliable from a buyer perspective than these other venues and I hope to see this design market migrate more toward that more free venue, or the specialized dealers, many of whom are listed in designaddict's list of links.
Ok, ok, room_606
I understand what you are saying room_606, with regards to "totally insignificant upholstered american furniture" and "these dealers are wasting the market's time, selling kind-of-OK junk as a collectible". I totally understand, but they are NOT selling it as a collectible. What I am saying is, that when you say "these dealers are wasting the market's time", you are talking about a different market than the market 1stdibs is serving. Yes, those no name pieces are not collectable, but these buyers are not after collectability, they are after BLING (for lack of a better word). Do you know what I mean? 1stdibs does not cater to collectors and the collectables market. If the piece happens to be collectable as well, then that is just an added selling benefit. The 1stdibs market caters to interior designers who are driven by aesthetics first, collectability second.
Same thing happens in fashion. 2 pairs of jeans, both made in the same factory who knows where. They are the same jeans, same cut, same construction, but one is ordered a distributor to K-Mart and the other gets odered by a high end fashion label. Same product, but the two different markets will dictate its price. The no-name American furniture is worth less in an antique store because that's where collectors shop, but worth more in a 1stDibs gallery because that's where interior designers shop.
So: "upholstered american furniture":
-insignificant in an antique store(or even eBay) because it is not collectable, eventhough it looks nice.
-significant in a 1stDibs gallery BECAUSE it looks nice, collectability not so important.
Agree, yes? no? Can we hate the interior design game, but love the collectables game. Just don't hate the players, that's all I'm saying. Too much hating in this world right now.
Help me...I'm getting sucked into another debate 🙂
I don't take these criticisms personally, but they do get my adrenaline going. I'm just going to rattle off a few more thoughts and see if any stick.
Firstly, there are different types of vintage furniture buyers and sellers. Some are collectors looking for pure examples of design, most are decorators or individuals looking for handsome furniture to serve practical uses. The first group likes their vintage all original and untouched. The other group wants their old furniture to look brand new. We do make decisions on how to treat an object based on whether it is a collectible or just a well made and handsome piece of furniture. You don't refinish a Nakashima...ever. And no one cares about original upholstery on the exquisitly crafted but simply designed Dunbar tuxedo sofa. The sofa may not be 'important' but invariably will have solid rosewood or cuban mahogany legs, an incredibly overbuilt hardwood frame, perfect spring system, down-filled cushions, and other luxuries you rarely find in new, extremely expensive furniture. If price is a false yardstick of value, design pedigree is also over-rated...sometimes materials and build really matter. And to put price into perspective, a mid-50s Dunbar sofa cost about $2000 when new. That's about $14000 in todays money. So when you see that sofa on 1stdibs for $8000, realize it hasn't come close to holding its original value. And if the dealer purchased it off of ebay for $200, that says more of a lack of appreciation for value and quality in that venue, than an aggrandizement by dealers.
Which brings us to how our customers evaluate value. Our customers rarely look at a picture and description online and then buy an item. THey use 1stdibs as a convenient tool to gather tearsheets for clients, narrow down their choices, and then shuttle their clients to the semi-finalists to see the items in person. Often clients take pieces of furniture 'on approval' to try them out in their homes before buying. Our items aren't competing just with other vintage furniture, but new furniture in designer showrooms, Crate and Barrel, and custom workshops. Our prices are competitive with the cost of furniture in general. It has the added value of retaining some level of value after purchase. Most $8000 sofas are worth $0 the day after purchase. Vintage furniture, whether pedigreed or not, have build and materials that are impossible (if not illegal) to find today, and that will always give them intrinsic value. Our customers have a much broader and sounder view of value than design followers hyper-focused on names, dates, and innovations
legitimate Those recent comments are legitimate and appreciated. And I admit I come from a more deliberately narrow view on what is worthwhile and what forms worth preserving. I would presume that it is a dealer's role to trend decorators away from common items and sell them into a more refined level of recycling. What happens to the 8000 dollar american sofa once the client finishes with it? It is still very likely to migrate to the landfill, no?
And can anyone tell me, where can I buy more of these 4800 dollar broken marble outdoor planters sold on 1stdibs? I wasn't even remotely tempted by them until I read that they are "solid marble" and the "character" adding damage is resonating quite strongly with me. Anyway, I am having fun but you get my point, yes?
I agree with that
I don't know 1stdibs longterm growth strategy...they don't share that with us, their clients. But they seem to be less particular in who they let on these days. Another dealer recently suggested that they are in negotiations with ebay for a sale, and that they are trying to get as many new dealers as possible.
From my side, it really hurts the image and effectiveness of the site. They should be more stringent in the vetting process (only letting on dealers of the highest quality and reputation; verifying dealer merchandise) and not less, as has recently been the case.
But I see that there will always be disagreements on what is worthy and what is junk. Room606, I love those pots. I don't deal in that kind of decorative stuff, but if I did, I'd cream over those. yes, the chips and wear gives it character. You really seem to lack an appreciation for the aura of amazing old things. These pots sat outside for 100+ years, probably with dirt and roots in them. That they still exist is a miracle. They are truly one-of-a-kind. They are hand carved and beautiful. The price is more than reasonable. You see some dirty old pots...I see a miracle of preservation. And anyone looking for antique garden items will know that if they like them, they had better buy them, because another pair will never come their way.
urns for sale AOM: None of that is true. These could have come from underneath my verndah, so much stuff has fallen off the ledge during this season's storms. There is some important stuff for the garden if you are into outdoor urns (which it sounds like you are).
Check the link and buy something worthwhile and save yourself some hard urned money. (You think those firstdibs urns are pretty? I don't think they are so pretty.) Edited by DA [ broken link removed ]
flea market presentation
Just browsed again for some deals on firstdibs in order to fuddle myself. Now, it looks like there is a Paris dealer who carries many genres of fine design. Have a look at this set of nice American chairs attributed to the Katavalos group (actually these are the Pollack sling chairs, but that is not at all important to the liting, offering price or this discussion). When I look at the "firstdibs paris" dealer's larger offerings, the photos show what look to be many different dealer stalls at the Gard du Nord flea market in Paris. Someone in Paris can correct me if I am wrong, but it looks as I remember it. And if correct, then the previous comment about the firstdibs = flea market is actually quite so and dead on. It is actually an electronic *assemblage* (which is a French word) of fleamarket dealers' wares.
Ageofmachine, firstdibs dealer, is it true, oui or no?
Edited by DA [ broken link removed ]
1st Dibs Paris
Although I've found many of room606's comments very irritating and overwhelmingly naive, I will answer the Paris Flea Market question. 1stdibs was first created by Michael Bruno as a way for the dealers in the Paris Flea Market to get their items seen around the world. As it was very successful, he decided to open it up to a select group of dealers in New York and a couple of other cities. It was supposed to have a cap of 250 dealers last year, but obviously that has changed, since it seems that new dealers appear every week.
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