You know...what's really stupid about all of this
is these idiot knockoffs are selling currently produced designs! Heck, if I wanted to make some big money, I'd start knocking off Nelson clocks that are NOT being prioduced by Vitra! Or some Greta Grossman furniture! Or some long-discontinued Eames or Nelson pieces!
As long as you can buy USED originals on eBay and at furniture stores around the world for less than buying them new, then there's no reason to buy a knockoff that's made with cheaper materials and probably won't hold up as well as an original.
Yes, I know that Vitra, Cassina, Flos, Artemide, Alessi, Herman Miller, Knoll, Fritz Hansen, Louis Poulsen, and Kartell are quite expensively priced, but if you wanted stuff from any of these companies, buying them used is as much a slap in their faces as buying a knockoff!
Why, oh why doesn't these knockoff-au-go-go companies knockoff stuff you CAN'T buy from the legitimate companies??!!
You all know George Nelson is probably my favorite designer. Heck, if someone who knockoff the famous Nelson Desk (4658), or maybe the 3 legged linoleum, tubular aluminum kidney shaped coffee table (4696), I'd serious consider buying one!
Hi Heath....
As has been pointed out before, there are four different legislations related to the protection of intellectual property. The first one is a patent protection and applies to original and useful inventions.The period of protection was ones based on the professional life time of glass blowers in Elisabethian England:18 years, and is now around 20. The second is on design of industrial products and is called a design patent in the U.S. although it has few procedures in common with regular patents. In a number of countries it protects for a multiple of renuable 5 year periods with a 20 year maximun. Than there is copyrights a protection granted to anything that is a work of art, written text in any form, music etc. and more recently computer programming in all it's forms. The protection is the longest one and lasts 50 years (in some countries 70) after the end on the year in which the writer, composer etc. was born. The last protection is the trade mark protection and applies to trade marks and is, as copyrights bases on a simple claim (circled C) and or on registration (difference between circled R and circled TM).
The models we are discussing here have no protection left. They are as well stated by one of the consulted lawyers in the NY Times piece: "in the public domain". What is left is that you can have a copyright on the description of the piece, hence the copyrighting of the combination Barcelona chair or Barcelona Pavilion Chair.
It has been the choice of the different foundations to grant licenses on this copyright (not the shape of the product) to very few companies. This is a deliberate choice. They could have done otherwise and have given licenses to those that made a pre-set quality of the given product. It is my impression that most of these foundations have been misguided by the demands for exclusivity and that they would have served their own interests better by doing this differently....
I have to make a small sidestep here. What Herman Miller is trying to achieve is to claim infringement on trade-dress under the trademark legislation. It is a small portion of the trade mark legislation that uses (mostly in clothing) some characteristics of how and where you put the trade mark, as part of the trade mark...for instance a leather tag on the back pochet or on the belt of a pair of jeans. Herman Miller abuses (my opinion) a legislation (trademarks) that was never intended to protect a product design, to keep these pieces of furniture out of the public domain.
I find it very strange to say the least that one would abuse the law in order to get protection through it. It has never been the intention of the legislator to protect industrial designs that long and any decent company should respect the spirit of the law. It is strange but in some way the people that copy have more respect for the law as the ones that make so called originals.
cont.
Let me complete this with a comment on originals. I agree that quality should be respected and the different foundations should consider that. In fact it would be much easier in quite a number of countries to sue people that make inferior copies even if you acknowledge that they have the right to make these copies. I also find it strange that discussions on "original" do not include the fact that some products have changed over the years both in material and in dimension. The Barcelona chair in the collection of the MoMA for instance is different from the one in the German pavilion in the Barcelona Fair. On top of that Florence Knoll herself has given licenses to other companies...In my opinion it is unfair to produce now some of these classics with the name and or signature of the designer and in doing so cast doubt about products that were made by the same manufacturers or legitimate license holders prior to this laser engraving technology.
Koen...some ongoing pieces have changed
because of either environmental requirements, improved technology or the plain fact that there were problems with some of the original materials.
Case in point; Herman Miller had to lose the fiberglass material they were using for the Eames shell chairs. I like the older ones to be sure, but HM had to make changes.
Another example; all of the latex filled pieces from the 1950's have either petrified or gotten lumpy. Originally, latex was used because it was springy yet crisp-looking. However, history has proven that the material doesn't hold up over time. So, when HM started to reissue some of the previously discontinued upholstered pieces, they had to come up with a replacement filling for the old latex.
As far as the Barcelona chairs go, over the years, they've gone through a number of different manufacturers and I believe that they had to make some alteration in the leg framing to strengthen the structure. Not being a big fan of them, I'm not as aware as some to the changes made to them.
Isn't it interesting, though, that the Nelson bench and most of the Aalto pieces from Artek have remained basically the same? Yes, the new benches are light birch colored, but the basic structuure has not been altered.
In most cases, finding a vintage original in good condition is my #1 choice.
2nd choice is finding an original that can be redone affordabily.
3rd choice is buying it new.
4th choise is buying a known knockoff.
One has to balance collecting an original vs. buying a new one (If you found a vintage 1960 Flos floor lamp, you probably would still have it rewired.)
Right now, I'm having a LaFonda shell stripped of its old petrified foam and torn fabric and it's being recovered with Maharam fabric by Ray Eames called Crosspatch in the spring colors.
So, the chair won't be an absolute original, but at least it'll look beautiful and I will be able to sit on it!
Bottom line, collecting mid-century modern (or earlier) furnishings involves some compromises!
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Thankyou so much Koen, I wish you had been one of my teachers.
Great idea about extending licensed production of these articles to anyone who can keep the quality control up, if they licensed for a lower fee internationally we could have, for example, Eames plywood chairs with locally produced face veneers which would be critical regionalism in real action.
Also a good point someone else made about re-issuing old designs that HM et al pass over, or even resurrecting some much ealier stuff like Stickley or Josef Hoffman chairs, has to be a mraket there for someone.
what about the value....
if it's so that after 50 years you can not really claim the design anymore and many other will start to (mass)produce the chair; this would probably mean a pricedrop for the originals. Of am i completely wrong? There will be chairs produced with maybe simular quality and this would have people really think twice about spending a lot of money for the 'original'. It's still confusing........ if there is nothing illegal in selling a replica, is it then only that you pay for the approval of the foundation? (i must say i was looking at 'the perfect gift' at the eames foundation from which you also will receive a rosewood version, really nice!).
One of my reasons to save for a 'genuine' one is also that i thought the chair will keep a good value, but when this is not the case..... :-/ maybe i should just go to IKEA and forgot all about it.... ;-(
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a Herman Miller or Knoll et al will allways be more valuable, much like a pre war german Barcelona would be worth a packet compared to a Knoll issue, its all about the designer-as-hero and the closer the designer/manufacturer relationship the higher the value.
If mies had actually got his hands dirty and did some grinding,polishing and stitching imagine how much that would be worth.
i surrender
.... i will from now on only look at the real thing. Forget about the discussion, no more talking over the rights after 50 years and so on. We wanted two simular, but now we will just start to save and look for one first, probably a used version. Does anyone know if we would be able to still buy an original cushion set for the lounge chair? This in case of buying a used one which really needs new cushions. And are the available for all models of vitra. and HM produced in the last 50 years? Or do we then need to re-upholster it?
Shipping Eames Chair from the US *is* cheaper
I'd disagree about shipping an Eames chair in from the US. I've done this just now (from the US to the UK) and, although it was a chore, it's saved me nearly 2500 UKP on the high street price.
My costs broke down like this:
Cost of HM chair and ottoman, Santos Palisander, Ambassador Leather - 3599 USD / 1900 UKP (last years prices)
Cost of air shipping door to port, cubic weight of 140 lbs - 1100 USD / 560 UKP
UK VAT on chair - 340 UKP
Customs clearance charge/Airport to door freight 60 UKP
The total cost, therefore, was around 2900 UKP. Remember, there is no import duty in the UK on soft furnishings so no extra cost there.
Of course it was a hassle, as HM USA will not allow their dealers to ship directly to the UK. I had to sort out my own freight company to pick up the chair from their warehouse and forward it to London. But the hassle was worth the saving in my opinion.
Cheers
Jamie
Yes, very unfair, and the...
Yes, very unfair, and the price differential is not small either. The product is presumably manufactured in much the same way, so Vitra are purely charging on what they believe the market will bear.
Whereas that's a standard economic model for luxury items, it is one that's only maintainable with interventionist rules such as disallowing HM stockists to ship outside the continental US, which is what sticks in the craw a little.
If anyone's interested (and I'm allowed to post such things here) I can let people know the store and freight carrier I used.
Cheers
Jamie
Hi Jamie
I do not think anyone will prevent you from sharing the information (I for one have only been censured once since october 2001) but I am not sure the store would be pleased if their suppliers learn on this forum that they did not respect the rules...just something to consider
True, I can see that....
True, I can see that. Although the store did very much respect Herman Miller's rules in that they refused outright to ship to Europe directly. I purchased the chair, told them I would collect it, and had a delivery firm collect it from them. The store presumably met its Ts and Cs like that and what I directed the delivery firm to do afterwards was my prerogative.
Anyway, I've rattled on. The store was the Ultimate Backstore and the couriers were a company called Direct Rush - both with very obvious internet addresses. I'm sure there's nothing particularly special about either supplier or courier, other than they are conveniently geographically close to each other.
Cheers
Jamie
Florence Knoll desk table knockoffs
I just bought some desk/tables that look exactly like the
Knoll products but noticed some slight differences in the
bases. Does anyone know of other manufactors of these
items. If you look on ebay you can see a base that someone
has sold that looks like the ones on these tables. the "knockoffs" don't have the same spacers that knoll uses between the
legs and the base and the legs are not nearly as wide and tapered.
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