your facts are all correc...
your facts are all correct... although a few details have been omitted.
LuciferSum is perhaps the most knowledgeable of all on the Herman Miller and Knoll products and i always look to him first, as for some reason he has his finger on the pulse of all furniture.
I did hear that Modernica did make the storage units for a short time,
I was so floored when i read about Gratz in NY is still making the Mies Tuganhut chair.
I placed a call and you can have one made just like t he one i got at Christmas for $13,500 can anyone tell me why a new one should cost that much? I was shocked i talk to a rep they said 6 weeks to make one any color leather. not to many made But if you are going to Japan you can have one from Knoll for
$8,000 U.S. dollars
Modernica, fiberglass...
Modernica was indeed producing the knockoff ESU for quite some time before HM contracted them. In fact, I bought the Modernica version a few years before the reintroduction, because frankly, they were about the only ones producing them.
Quite surprisingly, Modernica made both HM tagged, and Modernica tagged pieces simultaneously. That's sort of the crux of my legit v. non-legit argument. The label was pretty much the only difference at that point. I'm not sure how they managed that politically, but I do know that when I talked to Eames Demetrios in 2000, he was not at all happy with the HM / Modernica relationship. Perhaps the simultaneous production was the cause of it. I didn't press him on it, and it was right around that time that the relationship was severed.
Luc,
First I do apologize for my rather abrupt entry into the conversation. I meant no offense. Just wanted to add my 2 cents to a spirited debate.
You are correct about HM enforcing stricter construction guidelines on Modernica. Before the partnership, it was pretty much a custom shop. You ordered a size, and picked out every single panel and option. Crazy way to manufacture anything.
Re. the fiberglass chairs. Yes, the Eames' might have eventually altered the materials, but 21 years after Ray's death, it's all hypothetical. However, we can be pretty darn certain that the Eames' would NOT have tried to make the polypropylene emulate its fiberglass predecessor, as Vitra has done with the surface texture. One thing that the they were fanatical about was allowing materials express their own nature. Also, the example of using plastic for the EA127 is a bit specious. It wasn't a replacement for the DCM; just an additional model in the line. The Vitra armshell is meant to be the current incarnation of the original DAR.
Re. the clocks, yes, Irving Harper claims the design duty for most of them. But with the exception of some really awful post-modernist clocks that Howard Miller produced, none of them actually had George's name on them anyway (and IMHO, he really shouldn't have... dreadful things). That said, if you own the consultancy, it's generally your name that gets attached to the product.
Surface texture
I believe the textured surface was chosen for durability, e.g. less prone to scratches, scratches appear less visible. I don't believe it was chosen to try to emulate the texture of fiberglass (since it is not even remotely close).
The Vitra Panton polypropylene chair has the exact same finish. You can get the glossy version, but it will cost you $1400. And yes, scratches will show up just like the original!
an introduction
LRF et. al.,
I fully understand why you'd defer to Luc. I can see that he's quite knowledgeable, and I have no history in this forum. So let me digress a bit to introduce myself.
I've lived the majority of my life within 5 miles of both Herman Miller and Howard Miller, and consequently, grew up surrounded by the furniture, clocks, and Herman/Howard Miller employees. I've been collecting for about 20 years. I've also done a fair amount of dealing, although I've mostly weaned myself from that addiction. (Nothing like 200 fiberglass chairs showing up in the basement to test a wife's patience.) Dealing doesn't automatically make one an expert, but it forces you to continually discuss and discover the details and variances of the products. It also means that you get to own / touch / study hundreds of original examples.
Many my friends, family members and professional colleagues have worked for, or continue to work for Herman Miller. Most of them are design professionals, and a few of them worked directly with George Nelson. I am an industrial designer, and have personally done work for Herman Miller, as well as a few of their suppliers, albeit many years after Nelson's tenure. It occasionally affords me an inside look at Herman Miller product, history, sourcing, etc.
Anyway... I hope that my ham-fisted intrusion into the Forum is taken in good spirit, and look forward to further spirited discussion.
yes poach Welcome!
It always nice to have a new knowledgeable voice contribute to these open forums. If you read some of the past threads of various topics, you will see that sometimes the discussions stay pretty peaceful and civil and sometimes they can get a bit testy and riled up. It just seems to be nature of this forum.
I appreciate the insight you lend and agree with much you have said. Such as your observations on Modernica. In my opinion, Modernica gets kind of a undeserving bad rep a lot of times on here. They have gone a bit off their mark in the last several years and I have not cared too much for their original designs either, but they were among the first to do some quality reproductions. A friend of mine went to the Noguchi museum in NY years ago and when no one was looking, he turned the Child's table over and guess what?.. it was a Modernica repro. I had the pleasure of meeting Frank Novak, the founder of Modernica about 10 years ago. He is a Nebraska native like myself and his parents ran an antique store in Omaha. I was in LA and traded him 4 Eames armshells and a Nelson clock for a Nelson clock I didn't have. He gave me and a friend a nice tour of his warehouse full of vintage modern pieces and of his factory where the reproductions were made. He was very likable and knowledgeable. I think a lot of his early reproductions and many of his current ones are just as good or better than much of the other ones out there by other companies.
I also agree totally with you about the Vitra Nelson clocks. For what you pay for them, they are not very well made and do vary a lot from the originals. I have been collecting Nelson clocks for over 20 years and have been able to compare just about every Vitra repro to a vintage original and there are so many little things that Vitra could have taken the extra step and done better. I don't know how many times I been in a DWR or other such stores and have seen a Vitra clock falling apart as it hangs on the wall. Vitra was not the first to do Nelson clock reproductions either. There was a guy out of Chino, Ca (Advance Interiors) in 1997 who was doing about 4 different Nelson clocks and they were just as good or better than Vitra's. He was also doing the Marshmallow sofa and a few Eames chairs.
Anyhow, this has turned into a rather long contribution to this thread, when basically I just wanted to say welcome to this forum and thank you for lending your knowledge. It is great to have such a place where people like you and Luc can offer your insight and opinions. I have learned much from all of you and enjoy this forum. Hope you will too.
poach, BTW
Your comment earlier about the Nelson post-modern clocks designed in 1984, here is some interesting information about them. I heard from a friend of mine who was doing a book on Nelson clocks years ago, that the Nelson office originally submitted those designs as lamps, and that Howard Miller thought they would be to strange to sell well. So they were redesigned as clocks. Although I am not a huge fan of post modern/Memphis design, I own 2 of Nelson's 1984 clocks and rather like them.
I take umbrage at the opinion...
I take umbrage at the opinion that LuciferSam is the Design Addict forum expert on Herman Miller/Vitra. I know this sounds a little bizarre but I am actually the reincarnation of Charles Eames, and as such feel much more qualified on the subject, especially since it was me that came up with the designs in the first place!! And BTW, I never really liked that stupid elephant I designed for rug rats.
howard miller vs vitra...
Check out the ebay auction below. I have a vintage Howard Miller version of this clock. I have never seen the vitra reproduction, but from the vitra photos the only thing that looks different is that it's made of cherry instead of walnut. I saw this auction on ebay - and I have to say, if this is the current version, I'm really disappointed. It looks nothing like the original - The face is flatter with the bevel on the inside being majorly enlarged, it looks like the glass is flat, and the base is not circular (which i knew, but this looks severely skewed) Is this a good representation of the vitra version, and if so, whats the deal with the proportions? This is the only repro that I've notice that seems dramatically changed. Anyone?
I attempted to post this in the associated web link but it kept giving me errors so here is the link...
http://cgi.ebay.com/VITRA-George-Nelson-Chronopak-Desk-Clock-Eames-Knoll...|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50#ebayphotohosting
Welcome
Stephen...if you're Charles I suppose that make me Ray? Damn, those checkered skirts make my ass look big...
Welcome Poach! And I really mean that. The more information contributed the better. Now, on to disagreeing with you 😀
So as for the EC127, I don't think it was meant to replace the DCM, but it certainly was an evolution of the form, and a much more sensible way of upholstering them than the earliest incarnations.
The plastic chairs also evolved: from the very thin fiberglass w/rope-edge and large mounts, to thicker fiberglass and smaller mounts, the base material changed, the base form changed from X to H, the glides changed, the upholstery was originally wired, then glued, then vaccuum injected. I don't think its much of a leap to arrive at polypropelene. I also don't understand your comment about Vitra texturing them. The poly looks just the same on the Eames chairs as it does on any other polypropylene things I've seen. (I just glanced at my co-workers Mirra chair and the poly is the same sort of texture).
Also - my point with the Nelson clocks was that George was head of the office. Yes, his name is applied to all products, but it's not like he personally designed them all, meaning that Jaqueline's involvement as a former Associate member is more relevant than, say, Eames Demetrios' involvement. (Not that his is irrelevant...just different) As for quality/material I am sadly lacking in knowledge of the original Nelson clocks and will have to defer to those who are. I only know the 3 Vitra ones I own.
Interesting....
(....Re. the clocks, yes, Irving Harper claims the design duty for most of them. But with the exception of some really awful post-modernist clocks that Howard Miller produced, none of them actually had George's name on them anyway (and IMHO, he really shouldn't have... dreadful things). That said, if you own the consultancy, it's generally your name that gets attached to the product.
.....)
Regarding the clocks, the George Nelson catalog published by Vitra that I tried to get some of you excited about - without any luck - has all of the clocks listed and gives full credit for who actually designed them....and they were not all Irving Harper.
The calog is now available in the US....I've got mine.
chair texture
Everyone: thanks for welcoming me into the fray.
Happy to hear that I'm mistaken about the texture of the plastic chairs. If they share the same surface as the Mirra, then they're different than the ones I've seen, which may well have been pre-production models. I do remember that they had sort of a mini-starburst texture, which appeared as an attempt to emulate the random criss-cross strands of fiberglass of the originals. Good to hear that it was abandoned. Also, even though I decry the change in the geometry of the Eiffel base, it was unavoidable (as was the 4-star to 5-star change of the aluminum group). Its original geometry wasn't in compliance with BIFMA standards for stability.
That Vitra clock on Ebay really is an odd one. Adding to reactcreative's list of missed details: the stem is the wrong material, shouldn't be recessed in that little divot, and exits the wrong place on the clock.
Since we're on the subject of bad Nelson clocks, I'm wondering what the prevailing opinion is on Howard Miller's recent production ball clocks. I was stunned when they (of all companies) got the proportions wrong. Nonetheless, if any company has a proprietary interest in legacy of that clock it's Howard Miller. Opinions?
poach
That has been touched on in the thread below.
Feel free to jump in there!
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/th...
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