Just curious. Are there any rock musicians known as modernists? Seems there was a Jacobsen Egg chair in a Beatles film (perhaps HELP!). That doesn't mean they were modernists of course. I remember seeing a photo of Abbey Road Studios where they had one of those clear blow-up plastic armchairs as well (who designed it?). Anything else?
jazz not rock seems modernist
I can't think of any complete rock songs that feel modernist to me. Rock comes from the blues, gospel, folk and hillbilly music. Rock seems always about something, not about itself (i.e., rock music). 80s/90s machine music from Detroit might be an exception. Some extremely drugged out instrumental sections of music from the Jefferson Airplane, early Greatful Dead, etc., might also approach modernism. Eric Clapton's Layla, though it is dripping with and almost operatic "she ripped my heart out" romanticism approaches a kind of abstract exploration of rock musical form during some of its instrumental segments. Also, though I hate to say it because I dislike heavy metal, but some of their instrumental segments take off into fairly pure, if primitive, explorations of sound that have a modernist quality.
Still, cool jazz, bebop, etc. from the 50s/early 60s seems the musical equivalent of modernism at least with regard to abstraction and formal exploration of a musical style.
Strange
I don't think the Grateful Dead and the like evoke modernism at all! They are rather folksy and hillbilly themselves. And especially not heavy metal. Metal is rather pessimistic and lowbrow to be modernist. Plus I think you are thinking about rock music in it's very basic, non-evolved form. What about the experimental music of the Velvet Underground (produced by Warhol)? What about songwriters like Brian Wilson during the 'Smile' and 'Pet Sounds' era of the Beach Boys? Those forms are hardly 'hillbilly music.' The Velvets evoke a rather abstract form of expression while Wilson has a more orchestrated approach. What about David Bowie and his ability to to reivent himself every decade? He was a very creative man ahead of his time.
I agree about your Jazz connection and your electronic connection, bot those connections are commonly recognized among modernists (jazz among older modernists,and electronic among the young ones). As an avid fan of smart rock n' roll, I rarely find young modernists with similar taste. Most prefer DJ and House music. What about the Who? What about Tom Waits? The Beatles for Christs' sake, as timeless as an Eames chair any day ....
i agree with you both...
Jazz... Andy and the Velvet Underground for sure... And the Beatles in their own time... Then there's Moby and the "W" Hotel lobby music... Seems moreover what is contemporary, new, different, unconventional for the moment is better linked to a contemporary "modernist" lifestyle... In the heyday of Palm Springs mid century modernism all the Rat Pack had modern homes in Las Palmas and other trendy neighborhoods... A more intriguing question is what about politics and modernists... Do any Republicans own Eames Chairs? Do right wing evangelical zealots read books on global warming and the gay marriage while curled up in a Saarinen Womb Chair? Maybe it's best to stay on track with music...
Please just music...
I believe politics/design has been discussed here, but maybe not. Better for another thread 🙂 I'd really like to see how design addicts feel about this topic.
Would you classify music in the same way as design? Are there 'classics' (beatles and eames lounge + ottoman), groups that are ahead of their time (kraftwerk and gehry), and new groups that are simply in good taste and are a testament of their times and will be judged later as time passes (the flaming lips and the bouroullec brothers)?
whitespike, i think i did not make myself clear...Pt.1
i love rock and roll music through most of its stages. i recognize that some rock is sophisticated and other is not. some rock endures as standards and other rock does not. now i'll try to take your points one by one.
Rock IS derived from blues, gsopel, folk, and hillbilly (rockabilly if you prefer) music. I think any rock music critic or musicologist would agree. I like rockabilly and folk and blues, and pure blue grass. All are respectable forms to me. But they are not modernist in any sense of the word modernist that i am familiar with. again modernism to me refers to a largely formal exploration of medium stripped of sentimentality, romanticism, and narrative reference. IMHO, a modernist work is a design, or artistic, solution to a problem (creating a pot, a painting, or a song) that tends toward a pure, elegant, abstract formalism that minimizes ornament and references to anything but the materials and problem involved.
Greatful Dead: I should have been more specific. I was thinking of the early Dead as in the long instrumental wanking during their Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test phase.
Jefferson Airplane: same as Dead.
Regarding, Beatles and Beach Boys, they are perhaps my two favorite bands of all time, but their music is wildly romantic and sentimental, even when they try to cut it with irony, as was the Beatle's habit. GREAT songs, but not modern. In fact, when I look at Sgt. Peppers I am inclined to call them the proto post modern band, at a time when there was no modern band to be post-...if you follow me.
The Velvet Underground: I have to confess to never having been a fan of theirs and so do not know all their stuff. Walk on the Wildside does not sound modernist, of course. But maybe some of their instrumental explorations in The Factory with the Polish Kid from Pittsburg, Andy Warhola, that I have not heard would strike a modernist pose.
The Who: Great band. Awesome beat from the groin when they want to. I might want Magic Bus played at my funeral. Sometimes when they leave the lyrics and stories behind and explore the music, they might qualify.
whitespike, i think i did not make myself clear...Pt.2
Tom Waits: now he's VERY interesting, kind of a musical Charles Buchowski. I was a fan for his first few albums and then he lost me. Waits is very complicated and original, imho, but he seems bitterly romantic rather than modernist. I can't imagine Eames, Corbu, etc. doing "One from the Heart" or naming their works "Swordfish Trombones", "Heart Attack and Vine," or "Franks Wild Years." And yet Waits clearly has a bit of Edward Hopper in him, but it always seems to be overwhelmed by his bitter romanticism, so I can see how you might see him as modernist, but I don't quite think he qualifies under my definition. His habit of infusing romantic forms with irony makes him more of post modernist.
How about Frank Zappa? He has a touch of Dada, but even he too is more about putting the lie to romanticism and contemporary values than he is about formal exploration to create something minimally ornamented and utterly about itself.
i really enjoy your explantations
I can see where you are coming from. The problem is also this: There are several schools of modernism. Are there artists with their roots in folk that somehow express themselves in a modernist way? Simon and Garfunkel maybe? They are basically a highly evolved folk group in my opinion. But I already see some of your not modern due to romanticism coming .... But maybe groups like that are akin to people like Alexander Girard, who take the best of modern and amplify it with something traditional. Folk music and folk art?
I love your explanation of Sgt. Peppers and can totally see that. So maybe much of my taste is also post-modern. BUT-how can the Beatles and Wilson be post-modern before it exists in pop music? Are you calling them post-modern because of:
A. The fact the music is heavily orchestrated? I am not an expert of classical music, but there was a modernist period no?
B. Lyric content? There was also a modernist period in literature, which I am VERY ignorant about. What do they say is the classification for modernism in literature? If so, what bands fall into that classification SOLEY due to their words?
C. Graphic quality? The Beatles clothes at this point were over the top to say thevery least. The fact that it was new and fresh and at the same time they borrowed clothing styles from history makes me believe it to be akin to Philip Johnson and his tendency to create modernist building with greek columns and the like (post-modern). Their album art is very overblown and yes, I could see it as post-modern graphically. However, HELP! is modern graphically.
I am still trying to understand how you are defining music in modernist terms. I wish you could break it down for me with numbered facts. I would like to see who agrees/disagrees. Believe me, this is not for quarrelings' sake. I am truly interested in relating my compulsion to create music and my love for architecture. There has to be links there.
Can we figure out how to classify a band as modern or not? Are there basic rules?
I know rules are meant to be broken for expression's sake. Perhaps if you meet 2 out of 3 rules you meet the code? I do not care if a group, or my group for that matter, is modern. I would just like to be able to relate to music on these terms like I can with design. Is it possible? Is it reasonable?
Olive, I can agree with your...
Olive, I can agree with your observations except to the eclectic/worldbeat/warhol.
If warhol was in the mix it would look like this to me: 60s pop modernism/underground 60s music and 70s glam/warhol.
His art feels associated with Panton and Paulin to me. I associate Warhol with David Bowie and Lou Reed too much to be able to see him in a 'world beat' light.
Back to the question:
What makes music 'modern' (lyrically, structurally)?
Whether it's modernism and...
Whether it's modernism and music, or as one person reflected, modernism and politics, I don't think there is much correlation of any kind.
Or should I say- only a correlation between the individual and their own taste. I've actually been witness to an argument once about modernism and politics by a girl who was dating a friend of mine years ago. She hated modern furniture/design, and she was a liberal, therefore only soulless conservative yuppies could like that cold modern stuff. I know plenty of liberals who have apartments full of modern furniture.
If someone hates modernism and they like jazz, then jazz goes great with antiques, 'surely everyone knows this!' If they love modern design, and they listen to classical, then naturally classical music is the only thing for modernism.
I think there is no correlation at all except for people and their own whims.
Back to the question:
What...
Back to the question:
What makes music 'modern' (lyrically, structurally)?
Why lyrically & structurally?
Why not "production", in which case, music created in a "modern" studio would be modern music and music made or written prior to modern techniques would be pre-modern? I'm not saying I agree with that, btw, I'm just questioning the criteria, the yardstick you're using.
Bauhaus Music
In the BAUHAUS book, there is a chapter about a musician that created "modern" music based on... dang, I cannot remember the criteria, it was something mathmatical. I've had that book high on my buy list for years, but the cheapest hardcover sold used on Amazon is currently $210. There has always been something more pressing to purchase... but I digress. I have that music chapter photocopied and in a folder... with all my other worldly belongings packed away in storage until the home renovation is complete. Once again, I digress. If you have access to the book, have a glance at what the Bauhaus considered "modern music".
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