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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2534
02/02/2009 6:35 am  

The HM get real thread prompted me on this one. I've always been uncomfortable with it but am really softening up these days and am not bothered so much. Inferior materials and workmanship being sold for high prices do but why not have elitism? We'll always have a bell curve of quality and price so really whats so wrong about it? We savour it in other areas, a great restaraunt, a beautiful writer, a fantastic vehicle or a pair of shoes.

I read a lot of fiction, Evelyn Waugh and Tolstoy being favourites, does that make me an elitist? Isn't the publishing industry a strange one? You can buy a paperback piece of genius writing for the same price as Stephen Kings latest. Still can't work that one out.

I don't think these modern furniture manufacturers have had an egalitarian approach for decades, if ever. So its nothing new.

Actually its not really a bell curve distribution is it? Excuse me while my finger draws graphs on the desk...anyway a distribution of some sort.


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SDR
 SDR
(@sdr)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 6462
02/02/2009 8:04 am  

I guess
this raises the issue of material vs concept ? You can have an pedestrian idea, well-made of precious material -- or a highly-evolved design, indifferently made of ordinary stuff. What's wrong with wanting the best ? But, given the difficult choice, which of the either-or compromises would you prefer ?
I realize this is only a portion of the larger question you raise. . .if it's a part of it at all.


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HPau
 HPau
(@hpau)
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02/02/2009 10:40 am  

.
"But, given the difficult choice, which of the either-or compromises would you prefer ?"
My thats a difficult one, I would have to say a pedestrian design made well from a robust and if at all possible beautiful material. I'm getting to the age where my purchases may well last me for the rest of my life and my choices are not as flippant as they used to be. And as David Pye pointed out good design is nothing without workmanship.
Isn't it funny though that the materials Eames etc popularised have now become actually quite expensive, have you seen the price of a full sheet of formica lately? Or very thick good quality ply?
I'm sure a lot of craftsman rolled their eyes and scoffed when these HM pieces first came out and thought material quality couldn't get lower....but no, it could! Plastic edge banding and melamine coated particle board. Yum, yum.
It's interesting too that the people who do produce articles for the elite often are the quitest, they don't need the publicity, the work speaks for itself.


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barrympls
(@barrympls)
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02/02/2009 4:21 pm  

To me, in terms of design or furniture, an elitest
would only want to have the most expensive furnishings around them. Fritz Hansen, due to their prices, I'm afraid falls into that category.
My tastes in quality mid-century design was formed by a very good friend of mine; I didn't like everything he liked, but his taste influenced me.
After years of having a few good pieces but little money, when I was in a position to finally buy a decent house and furnish it,I started collecting a lot of good books to remind me of the stuff I've seen over the years, learn about them and make sure that as I would go after a piece on eBay or at a shop, I was certain I was getting a geniune item.
Having good taste, learning about the era, and buying originals is hardly what I would call elitism.
An elitist (or shall we say, a snob) wouldn't even bother to post here at Design Addict because that kind of person wouldn't be likely to care to share information with anyone, anyhow.


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NULL NULL
(@teapotd0meyahoo-com)
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Posts: 4318
02/02/2009 5:26 pm  

Elitism
Does not equate (solely) to cost, by any means.


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Olive
(@olive)
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02/02/2009 7:07 pm  

Price and quality do not have to be linked.
There are many well made things in the world that can be had for a price that seems reasonable compared to the materiels used and time spent.
What pisses me off to no end about HM, Knoll and their cronies on this subject is that their claims of 'real' are not substantive. In some cases their entire ownership claim rests on nothing more than having copyrighted the name of a designer or of a piece. And they have the audacity to say they are 'real' because of this? That somehow, we are lesser beings if we can't afford to pay for the 'real' items hefty mark up?
The greed disgusts me.


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whitespike
(@whitespike)
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Posts: 3499
02/02/2009 7:30 pm  

They claimed their Aalto piec...
They claimed their Aalto pieces were real ... which is nonsense, since they aren't the original manufacturers ... if you want to get particular about it. They'll be the first to say Modernica shells aren't real because they are the original manufacturer. Their definition of real changes in each instance in accordance to their own convenience.


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NULL NULL
(@teapotd0meyahoo-com)
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02/02/2009 7:33 pm  

My understanding
Is that HM was to be the US distributor for Artek, like they are for the Vitra Eames pieces.


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NULL NULL
(@tpetersonneb-rr-com)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 522
02/02/2009 7:40 pm  

Elitism (AH online) 1. The...
Elitism (AH online)
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. a)The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class. b) Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
It seems to me a pretty decent definition. As beliefs go, elitism fares pretty well until you get to that prickly word 'perceived', which is made even worse by way of that frightening word beginning 2b.
One thing I've found is that there is usually only one thing more important (and by extension dangerous) to folks of perceived superiority than their perceived superiority, and that is the doctrine that all the world should abide by their superiority.


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LuciferSum
(@lucifersum)
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Posts: 1874
02/02/2009 8:28 pm  

Books
While you can pick up a Penguin Classic of Dante's Inferno for about 3$, a slightly nicer, trade bound book will cost you about $12. A hardcover will run you $20 or so, and a special edition, illustrated, or limited run can set you back as much as 50-100$ A first edition, vellum bound, from the Rennaissance would sell for several thousand.
So - the biggest difference in this analogy is that a book only needs the cheapest materials to convey the brilliance. Printing on newsprint or on 100% organic archival linen doesnt affect the meaning of the words, altho it can very much affect the act of reading. (How many times have you had a cheap paperback disassemble into a flutter of yellowed pages?)
What is interesting about furniture is that the intent is inherently tied to the materiality. An Emeco Navy chair isn't brilliant if it's made out of anything besides aluminum.
I would say the elitism stems from a "percieved" understanding of the historical, design, and material innovations of the piece. Will an uneducated person appreciate an Eames chair in the same way an architect would? By the same token an uneducater person would probably be lost halfway along Virgil's trip through Hell.
So - elitism isnt necessarily the objects themselves - it is how we expect people to react/understand/treat the objects.


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LuciferSum
(@lucifersum)
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Posts: 1874
02/02/2009 8:41 pm  

Incidentally
Incidentally - I disagree with the assertation that "real" is simply a marketing gimmick.
Legality and trade-dress issues aside: Herman Miller has all of the original drawings and spec sheets from Eames, et al. Mies authorized the production of his pieces through Knoll in 47. Artek was founded by Aalto and produced all of his pieces (including those sold by Herman Miller)
These manufacturers have access to the truest design documents of these pieces. In my opinion that makes them real. Even Vitra made sure to buy up all of the design archives of Howard Miller, and 30% of the Eames archives.
Yes - many of them make use of that as a tool to push prices higher, and squeeze buyers out of the market. I don't agree with all of their tactics, but I can't deny the authenticity.
To use the book metaphor again - I could probably tell you the basics of Dante's Inferno- if I had read it more than once I could probably give it a little more detail, but I would never come close to the original text.


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whitespike
(@whitespike)
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Posts: 3499
02/02/2009 8:43 pm  

"but I can't deny the...
"but I can't deny the authenticity"
agreed. I just like to be the devil's advocate. When I buy, I buy "real," so I can't really say much.


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Olive
(@olive)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2201
02/02/2009 8:54 pm  

Not arguing that point either
BUT and it's a big but. They claim ownership of other pieces where they only own the copyrights. The definition of 'real' is certainly qujite mutable in their eyes. And don't try to tell me it's not about profit, cuz money is ALWAYS what it's about.


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barrympls
(@barrympls)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2649
02/02/2009 10:14 pm  

Real is real is real is real
Olive; Herman Miller never manufacturered Aalto pieces; during 2002-2004, they simply arranged with Artek to distribute select Artek pieces into the US. This shouldn't be difficult to understand; Artek didn't have good distribution in the US prior to the Herman Miller deal. Now that the deal has ended, Artek does not have decent US distribution again!
As stated earlier, all that Herman Miller was trying to do with their clever, high styled video was to promote geniune Herman Miller-made products as being superior to the knockoffs. Nothing more or less.
Also as stated earlier, Fritz Hansen and Cassina (for example) both have similar sections on their websites, promoting their own stuff to be better than the copies and they show you how to identify their stuff.
There isn't a decent company on this planet that makes anything that they'd want you to go ahead and buy an unauthorized copy from somebody else.
No one could or should fault Herman Miller for promoting themselves are the sole and best place to buy Eames, Nelson and other classic pieces they currently make. I see nothing in this campaign to suggest that buying Herman Miller used isn't appropriate, although, of course, they want your sale by buying it new.
There's no controversy, other than my pointing out how funny it is that embedded in this cool video, they're showing pieces from Artek, who they no longer distribute!


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NULL NULL
(@tpetersonneb-rr-com)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 522
02/02/2009 10:39 pm  

barrympls, sometimes I get...
barrympls, sometimes I get the sense that you may not see some of the funnier things you point out. That could just be me, though.


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