It was interesting to see the debate of the 4th nov. Where I think LRF outlined a list of criteria that would deem an Eames longer ottoman a fake. One of these being, if it did not have a four star base. Being based in the UK, it is general wisdom here that chairs with a five star base are post 1980 (of course not a hard and fast rule) and as such later copies. This as most of you will know was due to an American health and safety law requiring swivel chairs to have a five star base. Nearly all European chairs pre 1980 chairs have four star bases, including all Eames/ Nelson chairs produced by Vitra. I also find it interesting on this forum, that little distinction is made between modern or new chairs and vintage ones. Such chairs may be original Eames, but they are nonetheless brand new. Personally I would much rather have an 1960s Eames chair produced under license by Vitra than an 1990 nor 2000s Herman Miller one. There is a better test of period authenticity for the aluminium group chairs (better illustrated by a picture, but here I go anyway). Turn the chair so your are at it from the side. Where the back of the chair rises and meets the top rail (where the fabric rolls aound into the back of the cahir), there is an allen key. In the earlier model this allen key is aluminium and has an aluminium surround. In later models the surround is in black plastic. I have always have original pairs of high back soft pads, lounge chairs, Harry Bertoia diamond chairs, Tobia Scarpa, Bjorg Mogensen, George Nelson, Luigi Colani, Osvaldo Borsani, Arne Vodder, Arne Jacobsen, etc, etc. I just bought in a house in Devon, England, yesterday a really good chrome and glass dining table 54'inch diameter dining table, with six original cantilever chairs, purchased in the 1970s from 'Heals' Tottenham Court Road London. I love your forum and find it interesting and inforamtive. In England though, things like re-upholstered leather (though often essential) would have a very negative impact on value. Originality and the earlier the better is the key determinate to value in Europe. Many thanks Mark mark@apollo.uk.net
I'm confused.....
I thought that when after the War, when Herman Miller introduced their Nelson/Eames modern collection in 1947, that Herman Miller has set up offices in Europe. I know that Knoll did.
I thought that both Herman Miller and Knoll's products were available in Western Europe, exactly the same stuff, until such time that both companies started to discontinue certain collections and pieces.
I thought that only then did Vitra sign an agreement with Herman Miller to produce certain pieces discontinued by Herman Miller.
Am I wrong? If so, someone in Europe please clear this up....and thanks
Please refer
to this previous thread, as whitespike says, there is no debate:
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/th...
extra info
There isn't only Vitra.
Belgium company De Coene had the Knoll manufacturing and distribution rights from about 1950 to 1975 ( for Belgium, Netherlands en Luxemburg ).
They were on of major belgian furniture manufacturers and interior designcompanies.
I just read an article about Italian company De Padova. It says that they have or used to have ( from sixties till the eighties ??? ) the manufactuaring rights for Herman Miller.
Why this obsession with Eames & co ?
Because it seems to be that with the exception of the wonderfully bizarre world of post war Italian lighting, the American assortment of post war designers/architects, including;
Charles Eames (Evans, Herman Miller)
Ray Eames (Evans, Herman Miller)
Eero Saarinen (Knoll)
George Nelson (Herman Miller, Howard Miller)
Irving Harper (Herman Miller, Howard Miller)
Warren Platner (Knoll)
Harry Bertoia (Knoll)
Florence Knoll Bassett (Knoll)
Isamu Noguchi (Knoll, Herman Miller)
Jens Risom (Herman Miller)
Richard Schultz (Knoll)
Edward Wormley (Dunbar)
Russel Wright (lots of companies)
Paul McCobb (Winchedon, Calvin, etc.)
Alexander Girard (Herman Miller)
did the most wonderful, clever, yet tasteful of the post war designs since the Bauhaus of the 1930's.
Sure, there's lots of interesting European designers, but to me, there didn't seem to be a movement as organized and structured as those coming from Herman Miller or Knoll.
Perhaps if there was a comprehensive book on just European post war design, I'd see some of the brilliant designs, but off the top of my head, I don't see stuff that moves me as much as those from Herman Miller and Knoll.
As both Herman Miller and (especially) Knoll hired designers with a European background, I consider their stuff to be of International interest.
Why are you so down on Eames and other American designers?
One more thing, yes there were really progressive designers like Panton, Aarnio and Kagan doing some way-out stuff, but little of it is classic enough for me to want to have in my living room. (They are fun to see pictures of, however.)
670
i recently saw an ICF 670 for sale and eventually bought it. in deciding what it was i did a little research and found; this chair has a very different base (like a five star task base) and an extra pair of mounts on the backrest. i assumed it was a knockoff until i referenced it in two design books (both european, one from about 1960, the other from the 70's both citing eames/miller). i later found two examples of the same chair. one had a hille/ herman miller label and the other had an ICF/herman miller label. mine is just labeled ICF. apparently vitra won a suit against ICF for the herman miller and/or eames name (early 90's?) and since ICF uses only its own name on their label, though the chair is still the same. my conclusion based on available evidence was that hille in england and ICF in italy produced the 670/671 under licsence from herman miller from nearly the beginning (approx 1958). i also assume that since these were labeled herman miller that these design differences were either eames work or with his approval. this would make them original eames design much in the same way that any other design changes on other pieces would have been approved or instigated by eames. any thoughts?
http://www.retrosixty.co.uk/stock/0314.html
barry is right on the money...
barry is right on the money......
these two companies are the holy grail of modern furniture design and the designers that Barry listed are the ones who made it what it is to day timeless!!!! others have come and gone and their furniture was great
Also never forget Mies, LeCorbuia who gave licences to Casina and Knoll from other companies, but the listed group made it what it is today,
Fritz Hansen comes in a very close 2nd as HM and knoll are number 1
I think everyone in the United States on this forum will agree with me Vitra was and is such a non event for us. as we are all Herman miller indoctrinated around here, once you cross the big pond you are in Vitra country .
I look at them as just a licensing company that received the license to produce these wonderful designs
glassartist
that is a great chair as it yells I am from the European side of the Atlantic, I wish are friend would get his buddy from the archive dept of HM to explain why they found the need to have the bases different,
I have maintained that the American company HM made the chair, pads,rosewood and shipped the parts over and the European company made the base to qualify for some tax
or manufacturing credit in there respective country, and that is why they are different, No other reason that i can think of ,
Kartel, Fritz Hansen, Louis Poulsen, Cassina, et al
All of the above are wonderful companies, honestly, but here in the U.S., either these companies have not promoted themselves enough to have lots of distribution agents to sell their goods here in the U.S. (Cassina and Fritz Hansen, Kartel) or are so amazingly overpriced that in comparison to other similar companies, they're usually not purchased (Louis Poulsen, Cassina).
As stated earlier, many European designers and architects fled Europe after WWII and became the backbone of AMERICAN furniture design. So, in some ways, European MCM fans should accept Saarinen, Rissom, and Bertoia as their own.
Muchas veces, cuando hablamos...
Muchas veces, cuando hablamos de los eames, perdemos de vista sus muebles fueron pensados y concebidos para ser producidos en serie y llegar a mucha gente. lo importante no es tanto si la editora es vitra, herman miller o ICF, lo verdaderamente importante es el rigor en la producción y la calidad final del producto. Seguramente, si los eames vivieran estarían de acuerdo en muchas de las pequeñas mejoras que el avance de la técnica ha permitido introducir en sus diseños mejorándolos.
No entiendo muy bien el valor añadido que se da al producto por el hecho de que esté fabricado por herman miller o vitra, o que se desprecie si lleva la etiqueta ICF. Ciertamene Herman Miller fue la primera, pero La ICF y la Vitra empezaron a finales de los cincuenta o los primeros sesenta a producirlos en europa con licencia de herman miller, cuál es el problema, son sillas fabricadas en Serie. Nadie como la vitra para promocionar a los eames en europa. Y la ICF mientras fue de Madalena de Padova, qué decir, una calidad extraordinaria, y después también, en honor a la verdad, todos son eames, todos participan del genio de sus creadores.
la batalla legal de los derechos de producción de los muebles eames en europa, que finalmente ha ganado vitra, sólo ha servido para que el precio de sus muebles sea notablemente superior a la versión americana de Herman miller. Como muestra un botón, la 670 y 671, pueden conseguirse nuevas en USA por unos 3.500 $, el mismo producto de vitra cuesta unos 5.900?, unos 8.850$, al cambio actual.
If you need any help, please contact us at – info@designaddict.com