"I don't think I will need...
"I don't think I will need to take it that far as he already said he was willing to take them back if I am not happy with them."
Joshua, this is the reason scam artists like Industrial arts (Fred) keep getting away with scamming people. The very small percentage of his buyers that figure out theyve been duped get an immediate refund so that they stay quiet. Potential buyers are never wiser because of his 'clean' feedback record.
Allow him to refund, but you should still definitelly leave negative feedback warning potential buyers.
so...
The local expert said what I thought.
LCW refinished, and the shock mounts redone, with old but wrong part. Screws were off, and the label was an obvious fake. She was surprised it was such a poor "copy/marriage" .
Same with LCM, except again the back is from a DCM.
The shell she felt was real but potentially bleached a bit, and the label she said was debatable, but not nearly as "bad" as the LCM and LCW.
Needless to say I have already contacted the seller to let him know the chairs are being sent back.
I still have a court...
I still have a court decision from 1984 awarding me 5k that I spent on two fender guitars from an add in the back of guitar player magazine. They were fakes: 63 start, 65 tele. The seller told me to ship them back and he would refund my money. I refused and Instead contacted a lawyer who appeared in court for me (out of state transaction) and won the case. I did not have to return the guitars and he still owed me a refund of all money spent.
The reason I didn't return the guitars was just so he couldn't resell them to get the money to pay me back which would have just started a never ending cycle (until he found someone that accepted them as real).
I was the second one to get the guitars, the guy before me returned them for a refund. I stopped the cycle but it cost me.
If he offers a refund than where is the crime? I don't think the police would waste their time on it.
This issue
is not just rampant in this category, but everywhere. Like I said i am a self professed noob about collecting Eames, and learned a valuable lesson but had to start somewhere. In the other things I do have some expertise in, it is amazing how much fake and modified product is passed off on Ebay. They don't care unless it effects their bottom dollar.
I know a seller who simply copies other auction site listings in Japan and elsewhere , lists them as his own for 2-3xs the asking price and then buys the original, if someone bids on his fake listings... or like most the time, the original sells before he can secure it, and tons of confused collectors have to get their money back.
I already spoke with Ebay about this, and the process is difficult for them to evaluate if the items are "real" , as he is not selling recent Chinese copies, but refinished original and replacement parts... it becomes a little harder to prove intent to defraud, He could simply say he got defrauded by the person he bought them from and claim ignorance. As seen before, one person complaining does not seem to make a huge case for Ebay to do anything, if he brings in a lot of money for them. Anyway, thanks for the feedback on the chairs, this was an enlightening, if not slightly disheartening experience.
I just realized after...
I just realized after reading through this thread that I think I know who this 'Fred' guy is.
He's based in the SF East Bay and I regularly see him at estate sales.
Dont talk to him much, but I have to say that he looks a bid shady in person, which I suppose is appropriate since hes scamming people online.
"If he offers a refund than where is the crime?"
Norm, are you suggesting that every thief can avoid prosecution by simply offering to return the property he stole?
I think you're confusing crimes and torts.
If someone defrauds you and then gives you a refund after you complain, you end up more-or-less unharmed and have no loss to recover in civil court... But he has still committed a crime and can/should be arrested and prosecuted in a criminal court.
Nope
He is L.A. based from the business card he gave me while picking up one of my Zenith chairs that he purchased from me on Ebay. He's pathetic having to resort to this considering the the high paying creative positions he's held at major companies over the years. To my knowledge he has at least three Ebay IDs (mentioned earlier in this thread) which he changes on a regular basis.
Last year he tried to con me with a fake LTR on Ebay and I gave him a negative. He replied saying it's how he bought the table; never addressing the vintage HM medallion he added to it. Negative feedback is the only way to warn other potential buyers.
Josh
Don't be too hard on yourself. As others have said, every collector screws up now and then. It's painful and sometimes it's embarrassing, but look at the bright side---you are SO much more knowledgeable now! Even if you can't yet rattle off all the different labels and marks and features of the various Eames permutations as a result of these mistakes, you now know that you have to research before buying. Just think of your experience as a crash course in the importance of research.
Oh, and i agree with those who are telling you to leave negative feedback for this guy. He deserves it and he can't retaliate on your feedback, so go for it. Just keep it to facts, no emotion, very reasonable. No typos, either. That way you come off sounding sane and intelligent, and others will be more likely to heed what you have to say.
smogguy, Industrialarts...
smogguy,
Industrialarts aka "fred" is definitely based in the San Francisco Bay Area. I think you might be referring to his partner in crime 'Modernisia'...
Unless of course hes operating in both cities
EDIT:
I also just noticed that his auctions are now set to 'private' in the feedback section. I'm guessing hes doing this now to make it harder to track what he sold to certain buyers.
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