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Joshua F (USA)
(@joshua-f-usa)
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Joined: 14 years ago
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29/03/2013 12:12 pm  

Hello,

Quick question. I know the circle metal medalion labels were later, but had come across a table with what is a paper label version.
Can I safely say this is 50s? It is on what appears to be an early piece, so even though I had not seen this particular label variation, I have not seen flat matte paper labels on anything later than that.
thanks as always,
Josh


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Joshua F (USA)
(@joshua-f-usa)
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29/03/2013 1:19 pm  

Unless of course this is a to...
Unless of course this is a total fake label.


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Joshua F (USA)
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29/03/2013 4:30 pm  

Anyone? 😉
Anyone? 😉


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cubby01
(@cubby01)
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29/03/2013 10:36 pm  

May not mean anything but...
May not mean anything but when I search the web for any images of that particular paper label I can't find any. I would have thought I'd have turned *somethign* up. (maybe you can point to another example.)
Also it seems to be in very good shape for a 60 yr old paper label don't you think?


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DavidR
(@davidr)
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30/03/2013 12:18 am  

Hi Josh, this label is not...
Hi Josh, this label is not from the 50's, instead it is mid 60's. I would guess 1962ish to as late as 69. I can tell you as a fact that the late 50's examples had an almost identical metal label, but it was white and silver. There was also a different black round one used after this one, but before 1971. This one is definitely not paper. It is metal with what appears to be a black enamel. That is why it looks so good. Anyways, what piece is it coming from?


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Joshua F (USA)
(@joshua-f-usa)
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30/03/2013 12:37 am  

I know the background on the...
I know the background on the metal medalions, as the second gen 670 I have has the black label... but perhaps I am thinking it was paper because it looks very flat matt and the border is not perfectly round... seems off.
It is on a IT-1 which I know was only made from 47-55, so My gut says it is faked or added on. I am in the middle of a possible purchase, so thinking I might have to back out.
Here is the photos of the table in question.
My gut says I am thinking like a noob, because i wanted the table and the finish looked legit, so I thought perhaps that in 55' before they did the medals in 56' these were some weird paper transitional because it did not look right, it looks black and white and the border is offset. And I also thought why would someone try to put a fake label on a piece from the wrong era if they knew enough about the item in the first place. Seems easier to just get a early 50s silver foil label. Or honestly none at all, since most of the early stuff fell off anyway.


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foxxxy
(@foxxxy)
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30/03/2013 3:26 am  

"Also it seems to be in very...
"Also it seems to be in very good shape for a 60 yr old paper label don't you think?"
Ive never understood this kind of observation.
Paper labels on the undersides of furniture that are not exposed to light and hands should remain in pretty good shape regardless of age.


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fastfwd
(@fastfwd)
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30/03/2013 5:04 am  

Foxxxy
That depends on the composition of the paper and the adhesive, and on the environment in which it was stored, right? Cheap paper in a humid environment near a coal-fired power plant would deteriorate pretty rapidly even without any handling.


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foxxxy
(@foxxxy)
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30/03/2013 5:58 am  

fastfwd, yes, there are many...
fastfwd, yes, there are many factors that will affect how a paper label will age, but ive heard people refer to well preserved paper labels as likely fake because of their condition. I have a small cabinet built around 1850 with a paper label on the backside that looks like it was printed yesterday.


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Pegboard Modern
(@davidpegboardchicago-com)
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30/03/2013 6:07 am  

I only have your photos to go by
... but this does not smell right.
First, I have been collecting Eames and Herman Miller for MANY years and I have NEVER had or seen a paper label like that. The only round label like that I've seen was a metal medallion either with a white or black background. Later HM product had a label with only the logo and not the "designed by..." verbage.
Second, the IT table was an early design. The folding tables were supposedly produced until 1964, but I think the IT table was not very popular (hence the scarcity today) and every example I have seen has either had the rectangular label or none at all.
Third, the fact that the label is not in the center of the table is strange. Every DTM, IT, and LTR I've seen with a label had it applied to the center of the underside. Not always straight, or perfectly centered, but in the center and not in the a corner like the one you show.
Lastly, that as to be the most pristine example I have ever seen. The attached photo is of my very real IT table which I've always considered to be a very good example.
It's a pretty obscure design and not so popular that I would expect to see it knocked off, however I have recently seen knock offs of so many designs that nothing seems impossible anymore. Even if it is real, which could well be the case, the label still stinks to me. Do you have an image of the edge of the table so you can see the plys or a detail shot which might show ANY wear or signs of age?
*edited to correct photo links


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cubby01
(@cubby01)
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30/03/2013 8:22 am  

Foxxxy said "I have a small...
Foxxxy said "I have a small cabinet built around 1850 with a paper label on the backside that looks like it was printed yesterday"
That doesn't surprise me, the quality of paper was arguably better then. Wood pulp based paper wasn't common until later 1800s. Inks and glues used were differentx as well. But having looked under plenty of tables from mid 20th C that the label in top post didn't have the look I would expect.


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foxxxy
(@foxxxy)
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30/03/2013 11:03 am  

Paper may have been better...
Paper may have been better quality, but the inks were far less resilient.
Ive seen plenty of knoll paper tags from the early 50s and 60s that are immaculate.
Again, because a paper tag appears to be in good condition does not indicate it is fake.
Taking a loupe to it and examining how it was printed will give you a much better idea of when it was made.


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DavidR
(@davidr)
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Posts: 91
31/03/2013 5:51 am  

Pegboard Modern has made some...
Pegboard Modern has made some great points. Often when I think to myself "this is the best example I have seen", I raise an eyebrow. If it were to be all original, it would be incredible. What seems odd, however, is the glossiness of the paint and the glossiness of the top finish. If I were to go out and guess what the story is with this piece, I would assume that someone re-lacquered it and repainted it a few years ago. My next guess would be that someone bought a label from the wrong era and superglued it on. I am nearly certain that the label is not paper as well. Lastly, just by taking a look at the placement of the label and the fact that it is not on-center, does that seem like a very Herman Miller thing to do? If the price is low and you don't mind having an example that is not all original, I would go for it, however, you will see another one of these in your lifetime and I would be more inclined to find a different example if you truly want an all original one.


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Joshua F (USA)
(@joshua-f-usa)
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Posts: 167
31/03/2013 10:43 am  

These are all excellent...
These are all excellent points, and the seller followed up with the following info.
The label is the metal medaliaon and they realize it is wrong. They bought it from an ex Herman Miller employee..I have heard this often from many sellers so I never really care about that info... but they said they can promise the paint and finish are original. I suggested it was odd because I knew the table was from 47-55 and why would someone who worked for Miller add a label to it like that.
The sellers are collectors as well, so I would assume they would know better as well.
I have enclosed two more photos with shots of the edges.
They did say, they would ship me the table, and if I am in any way not comfortable with it, I can send it back. So, this does still interest me only because if the label is the only issue, it can be removed, and you may be left with a very clean example of a hard to find table... this is via ebay I might mention, so the fact the seller is on record as saying they will take it back does seem to bode well, as all my questions about authenticity have been recorded.
I guess it is if I want to spend a decent amount of money on a potential risk...I don't think I would if there wasn't a return policy, but I am always suspicious of everything once I see something off.


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Joshua F (USA)
(@joshua-f-usa)
Prominent Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 167
31/03/2013 10:47 am  

The only other thing that...
The only other thing that bugs me is the semi on the black paint... I always felt the black paint was always vert matte finish. But I won't be able to really tell until I see it in person.


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