window shopping
Gee, LuciferSum, I thought we lived in a capitalist economy where competition rules and consumers are expected to shop around for the best deal...your missplaced loyalty to these vendors, which could care less about us, is interesting...DWR charges WAY to much for their goods and I don't feel bad at all about going elsewhere for better deals. Perhaps you have additional money lying around to throw at them, but I don't.
Can't make a blind man see
Steve - you DO live in that capialistic society - where everyone says fuck-all and looks out only for themselves. And in case you hadn't noticed -its catastrophically collapsing around you.
I love how people use DWR to wail about prices without doing any actual research. My couch costs 3000 from DWR and it costs 3000 on any other website I found it on. Except, when I expressed interest in it, my friend there put me on the floor sample list and when it came up he gave me a good deal on it. So I guess that loyalty isn't so misplaced after all.
And you're completely missing the point. We're not talking about retail prices. We're talking about service prices. Shop around all you want. If you find a better deal on the same item - take it. But don't cloak your intentional ignorance of the service DWR provides in the guise of 'value shopping'.
We tip at restaurants, we pay more for self-serve gas, we say thank you to door-men. These things are not worthless intangibles - they are service and they should be recognized and paid for.
Edited: I removed the personal issue - it clouds the actual argument.
My My...the conversation can get heated.
My DWR is populated by nice people who would not ever offer me a steep discount or floor model, believe me. Indeed, whenever I've been in there, they were often busy on the phone.
I'm not saying they're rude, but busy not into a level of chit chat that would create an environment that might clue me into a special deal.
Also, in the past, DWR's showroom people were not especially helpful when it came to products by the lines they handle that's not on their website. Their website, by the way, has the most narrow pre-selected assortment of Knoll and Herman Miller i've seen from a dealer who can easily order anything from either company.
I bought my square table from Hivemodern because they were the only website I found that had it listed. Retromodern and Highbrow didn't. I didn't consider Unica Home because they would've charged me shipping.
So, my experiences at DWR aren't bad, just not quite a nice as some of the website dealers of this stuff.
Finally, when it comes to what I consider ridiculously high prices, I would bitch about Knoll, Vitra or Fritz Hansen LONG before I would complain about Herman Miller. To my way of thinking, HM has continued to be the most reasonable of the all of them, and if you call their at home customer support number, you get kind, helpful people who know what they're talking about.
Try getting that level of service by calling Knoll or Vitra directly! Hell, I'm having trouble getting that darn Nelson catalog out of Vitra.
dwr
So, not shopping at places like DWR when less expensive alternatives are available is linked to what is going on in the world economy right now? Give me a break. And if you want to play the poverty card, go ahead. My Dad was a janitor for his last 20 years--hardly a rich man. I learned the value of a dollar as a child, and places like DWR would like to take all of it and more if they could. They are in business to do that I realize, but as a consumer I will hunt for the best possible value.
Still missing the point
Steve, you're still wildly missing the point. I'm talking about service, you're talking about retail prices.
Also - I was talking about my life, and the smarmy accusations you lobbed at me. You deflected and brought up your father. Good for him for seeing the value in hard work. I bet he was glad he got paid for it, no?
Oy vey!
No one's criticizing the inclination toward thriftiness-- saving money's a good thing.
What some of us are leery of is the underhanded habit of taking advantage of Business A's customer service & conveniences, when you fully intend to actually buy from cheaper Business B.
Then, for good measure, you have the chutzpah to complain about Business A's comparatively higher prices-- totally blanking out on the fact that you enjoyed the very convenience that justifies the higher price.
It's like going to a restaurant and eating the complimentary bread, then announcing that you're leaving without ordering, because the prices are too high.
Sorry to beat this dead horse, but I can't tolerate the evasion of the point...
WOW, I must REALLY be the WORST OF THE WORST...
because I will go in to DWR, check out a piece of furniture, and then have my wife GET ME A TRADE DISCOUNT! I'm SURELY going to hell. This really is a ridiculous thread, of which I am only perpetuating the ridiculousityous-ness. I would argue that every website you go on to look at something and don't purchase from you are stealing from their web development and hosting fees. Does human interaction define "theft" as you are using it here? I hope when you bought your last car that you only went to one dealer and looked at only one brand before you pulled the trigger. Are you so morally SOUND that you felt obligated to buy from the FORD guy when you REALLY wanted was a Jetta simply because you wanted to see what the focus looked like up close? Do you have SUCH an UNBELIEVABLE handle on scale that by simply IMAGINING the dimensions of the Bertoia counter vs. bar height stool you don't have to go somewhere and check it out before you buy it online? PUHLEASE!! I'll buy from DWR when they have something exclusively that I want, which, I might add, they are starting to understand because they are getting some great stuff. Where is THEIR moral "rightness" when they sell J Schatz birdfeeders for more than you can get them directly from J Schatz. The earlier "caller" was right, it's called capitalism, and all is fair in love and...capitalism.
DudeDah - Agree
Look folks,
Efficient markets are efficient. Adam Smith is not an idiot.
When DWR was selling online exclusively, things were good for DWR. Then, DWR made a mistake - they opened up lots of retail stores.
There are several ways to grow a business -
+ New products
+ New Geographies
+ New Channels
DWR most aggressively pursued new channels - and opened up lots of retail stores. This created CHANNEL CONFLICT (their online operations vs. retail stores) and it also made their online operations less competitive as their online operations suddenly were forced to collect sales tax.
Note my careful use of words - "forced to collect sales tax." One can argue that one is supposed to pay "use tax" when buying from other online retailers like highbrow, but c'mon, let's face reality - this is not an enforced law and that's not the way our market behaves.
Anyways, DWR's stores offers its services for "Free" - it allows potential customers to inspect inventory prior to purchasing. No one is forcing DWR to give this service away - they voluntarily do this. And, again, markets are pretty darn efficient.
To suggest that exploiting these free services is somehow unfair to DWR is ridiculously naive - that's just not the way the market works.
DWR's fundamental problem is that they were selling undifferentiated commodity items and sold them in multiple channels in such a manner that caused their pricing to be non-competitive (tax). Look, any purveyor of commodity goods will tell you that price is the #1 determinant of sales performance. Its a commodity for chrissakes! When you can buy the same exact Knoll XYZ from DWR as from highbrow, unicahome, retromodern, or umpteen other places, its a commodity!
Now, the good news for DWR is that it seems to be learning from its mistakes. It has started to branch into differentiated products (non commodity) by offering exclusive products that are unavailable elsewhere. With such non commodity products, demand is much more inelastic.
DWR should also embark on an attempt to leverage its buying power to result in more competitive pricing for its commodity business (Knoll, Herman Miller, etc). After all, DWR's greatest strength is the size of its channel - so it should buy more - so it should get better pricing. Let's face it, DWR is very much the WalMart of modern furnishings - WalMart's channel is huge - and DWR's channel is huge (relatively) compared to other modern furniture retailers.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents...
Hahaha
Next time I stop in I'll have to compliment my friend on "the size of his channel". (for some reason that made me laugh so hard I shot milk out of my nose)
Your points about leverage and exclusivity are well taken Jhleung, but you're ignoring the fact that when DWR started they were the only game in town. I do think its a bit funny that DWR effectively competes with itself in terms of web vs. showroom. Seriously - if all things are equal it's so much nicer to talk to a person (call me old fashioned.)
But it's an inaccurate comparison between DWR and the likes of Hive. I would argue that the success of online retailers is directly related to the accessibility of the products provided by DWR. Without DWR online retailers become the same inaccessible fortresses that Knoll & Herman Miller showrooms are - you can look but you can't touch, you can see, but you can't buy - unless you're an architect
I really don't think taxes are so much the issue. Everyone grudgingly pays them (despite the benefits) and that's that. If you happen to live close to a low tax/no tax state you drive over the border blah blah. I think the biggest hurdle with DWR is the shipping. But again - that is a service that needs to be acknowledged and paid for. Online retailers can leverage shipping fees against their lack of overhead, but that same lack of overhead bars any accessibility to the product. It's a catch22.
(oddly, consumers seem willing to pay shipping at Amazon, eBay, and many other online retailers...I wonder what causes the exception with furniture?)
DudeDah
If I accidentally run someone over with my Jetta it would be considered negligence. If I deliberately run someone over with my Ford (Ford owners are notoriously violent) it's murder. The difference is intent and that argument has been made clear by several other posters on this thread.
... I do completely agree with you about needlessly jacked up prices. DWR also sells a Moleskin journal for 30$. The same journal can be had at any other store for $16. It's silly.
But - if a piece of furniture can be had for the same price between two retailers I will gladly pay a little more (shipping/tax) for the ability to try it out.
Shipping
It seems like there are numerous online retailers that ship Herman Miller (and Knoll?) products for free. I wonder if Herman Miller absorbs some of the cost and/or if there is some drop-shipping involved.
Amazon offers free shipping on most of their stocked items. If they didn't, I would have to go to big box stores much more often than I would like. I do a lot of shopping online out of convenience. But significant shipping costs would force to me to reconsider.
People are right that DWR...
People are right that DWR provides a service (allowing customers to see and try out furniture) that can be taken for granted. But I also strongly agree that they should have a lot more unique items, stock Artek exclusively etc, as has been pointed out above. DWR seems like such a big company that, when it comes to the pieces you can find anywhere, it's hard to feel that affectionate towards it.
The unusual lamps they are now stocking and more esoteric catalogue design is a big step in a new, less bland direction. I also liked their limited edition Christmas items, although they were priced a little high.
Incidentally, I find it annoying that the showrooms only display furniture, and that you can wait a long time to get a piece. The white glove shipping can be exorbitant, too. DWR showrooms could stock smaller pieces (as the DWR tools for living stores do). Also if DWR had warehouses in major cities that carried more items in stock for immediate shipment, this would be an improvement.
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