Koen
Koen
thanks for your reply , for some reason you always seem to be able to say things that others can not..
Your "work of art" really sums it up what has been a long nasty discussion on this forum with lots of people having hurt feelings thinking that the poor designers like mies and Carbusia and others are in a paupers grave cause they did not get there just dues and were ripped off.and still our by cheap copies This writer knows better I have agreeded from the beginning after the 17 year patent or copy write expires it goes in to the public domain..... sorta..... would you care to explain
"Trade Dress" Herman Miller has used that one so many times in there litigation for many years,
My wife has been a successful jewelry designer here in America for a long time , we have fought many times for design infringement but
to our dismay we have seen several cases dismissed cause of a rule that it is 75 percent similar but not 100, strange but true ,
who cares?
Neverminding copyright issues for a moment, my major concern with copies is this: as the world becomes enthralled with inferior copies for the sake of gotta-have-it-all-right-now gratification, (esp. these aloof rich types you refer to, who don't need a bargain), then manufacturers like Knoll, et al, might be forced to follow suit, just to stay alive/competitive. I rather doubt that Knoll is outsourcing any component of their furniture to China, but if they are, it's likely because of the wave of also-rans out there that keep undermining their bottom line, not to mention, undermining nuance.
Now if you can show me a spec sheet, with a valid, quantifiable list of components, from the screws on up, showing me that the reproduction in question is in fact, built to the same specs as the original article, then and only then will you have truly fair and healthy competition. Then and only then can you say that Knoll needs to get their prices in line with the laws of gravity, because, hey, this guy over here is making the same sofa, with the same or better materials, and he's employing workers who are proud of what they are making, and it shows.
Made in Italy. Make no mistake, the association factor of Italy lends pinache to a product in the mind of the layman, but I ask -- what is to say that the Italians are not outsourcing some components to China? This is not unique to the West.
Again, until a competitor can show me a fact sheet about everything from the springs to the screws, to what type of wood the frame is made from, and where it's made, it's all just smoke and mirrors, and you're better off buying the real deal from a company with a name and reputation to protect. If you can't afford it, skip it, or do like I do, and save up for it.
By the way, "not caring" should never be mistaken for cool. Caring is cool.
gosh it can be so easy to...
gosh it can be so easy to convey the wrong meaning online, I do care a lot Finch and I'm glad you do too, the *shrug* is one of despair.
I hate the thought of instant gratification, and the you-can-have-it-all marketing machine. We can't have it all and we never will. DCwilson loving his (frankly fugly imho) mini mixer and the thought he gives it is far nicer to think of then a fashion victim with a house full of nasty rubbish. I'm with you!
You are all right!!!!! ...
You are all right!!!!! it is easy to agree and difficult not to
Everyone knows my feelings on China and i don't like to buy cause of Human rights issues, not so much quality as I have bought some stuff from Furniture Fancy that sells Alphaville made in China,
I have said that the Barcelona chairs that I bought for my office they are every bit as nice as the Knolls that i have proudly displayed in my living room for years , that i paid several 1000 for.
I have been blessed so i am able to buy just about what i want when it comes to furniture.
I have never understood what Finch says about screw for screw I have been all over the chairs and compared them because that is me and i have both to do it, BUT i doubt that the average person would be as neurotic as me when it comes to chairs , and checks them like i do,
Let me be honest I hate to buy from China but i am not so sure that made in Italy is much better to me that is in the mind,
clarification
No, no -- the caring was in reference to the rich people LRF mentioned, milling about and not caring one way or the other whether it was the genuine article or not.
LRF -- I'm not arguing with you one bit. Just disagreeing now and then. I enjoy reading your points of view.
LRF -- the screw for screw th...
LRF -- the screw for screw thing; even if you don't suffer from compulsiveness and obsess over every little detail like you or I might, you'd still probably enjoy the peace of mind in knowing that only the best quality components and hardware have gone into your purchase, as with a company like Knoll. At least for now. If things keep going the way they are, then I fear whether a company like Knoll or Herman Millert will have enough bottom line to hack it at the same level of excellence in the future.
Caring about quality also means taking pride in the welfare of the company and it's employees that brought it to you. You're supporting designers/craftsmen when you buy from Knoll. That used to mean something once. It's why you used to see Union labels in clothing tags.
As for reproductions -- again, I'm all for it -- at least companies like Modernica or Modern Woodworks who don't outsource their work. I think it keeps the liscence holders sharp and the prices competitive.
As a man very much in the...
As a man very much in the street, I can say for myself that wealth does not lend gravity to a person's opinion or character. C'mon. The dollar is such a very relative thing.
However, I don't think lionizing the wealthy is a strictly Western or Texan phenomena. I think LRF was tryng to point out that if these billionaries who could have anything they want and still don't care one way or the other, then hey...but I think wealth makes a many people too comfortable, spoiled and aloof.
But, hey, money's great...
thanks finch my days of a...
thanks finch my days of arguing with any body are over I love everyone I just like to have fun and see what every one has to say They were real rich people at that store opening and the food was great I saw Bentleys and ne Rolls I have a Porche Cheyenne and i felt poor but I was the one running
around shooting my mouth off that this is a repoduction not made by knoll and I am sure somepeople
more than likely thought what planet is he from Who gives a big flying &*+% who makes it I like it i will buy it . Plain and simple That some care and others do not....
I care I like originals or furniture made by the original company and I would pay a few bucks more to have the original .
ever since i was a small kid i always liked the original whether jeans or tennis shoes.
sad
I have good friend by the name of Marc Hawley hands down one of the greatest furniture makers in the USA a good friend and I hate to say it Marc is very bitter,
bitter with lots of things . He has a fabulous store and a shop, and can make hand made furniture as good as Viscount Linley related to the Queen. by Hand and tools and saws right here were i live ,
I was at Marks store today as I bought a Harvey Probber bedroom set last week and the head board was a queen size and i need to have it made to a King a job that i thought at most maybe 300 tops to put side pieces of wood and change some brackets so i could use it , The probber is from the 60's and out of this world . Mark is the only person that i would trust to match it, He told me 900.00 bucks and basically had tears in his eyes and said I just cannot compete sorry i have to charge so much , "I want to give the custom shop up and just import from China " I hate to say it but i am gonna have to join them or i will go out of business .. I report this cause this is timely what we have talked about .. This guy makes the coolest modern furniture by Hand the finishes are out of this world, he was in tears, this is not right that this guy should have to hang it up cause he cannot compete with cheaper imports face it most of us, and i say most of us want a deal and we want it cheap He has the Italian stuff Aliver and has some mid century modern pieces
but he says people come in sit down kick the tires and then go order for 1/2 on the Internet . YOU People tell me what you think I know what i think and it is SAD
furthermore .... I advise p...
furthermore .... I advise people of places that you will not get ripped off !!!! if you are going to buy repoductions. I feel sorry for any one who is talented and has a real craft and the ability to make world class furniture . that is being forced out cause he can compete with forign goods He said lots of shops here in the USA were having to close there doors cause of this, I have never been a adovocate for chinese made furniture i
own all ORIGINAL furniture and feel qualified to make any statement relateing to furniture and repoductions.. i own a office with several business and lots of employees, I have the whole office and warehouse bedecked with repoduction furnitue cause i did not see fit to put original George Nelson Marshmellows, and Arne Jacobsen chairs from Denmark, And Original Verner Panton cone chairs
in a office were several thousand people go through the doors a year
SO I do know a few things about repoductions and yes I have bought them, own them and use the hell out of the them , and they are good for what they are , REPRODUCTIONS of modern designer furniture nothing more nothing less, I just wish some were not made in China cause as i have said once , and several other times I do not like there Human rights issues. I could care less about a designer not getting his dues but I do care a bout a human getting the crap beat out of him cause he put a strap on my chair backwords for 35 cents a hour , call it Hippocratic call it what you want, at this point i could care less
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