...
...it all sounds quite reasonable Joshua.
And don't forget that there might have been some overlap of the first and second generation shells too. I wonder how long they were experimenting with the first non rope shells, while still producing the rope shells?
And speaking of overlap, and 1954 onward being the beginning of the small mounts, I do have some uncommon combinations such as a red LARGE MOUNT shell-- but with only the three dots embossment on it. The three dots are usually associated with "3rd generation" Zenith production and the post- venice small mounts.
Mark- Great shot of the double rounded tabs cat's cradle base in the 1952 catalog. That could be proof of the early tabs manufacture as late as 1952, but maybe they simply had an earlier photo of the old tabs and used it in the catalog anyway...
Transitional zenith armshell?
Just picked this up and it is my first zenith. At the x of the base, where the four legs meet, there is a D engraved, which is a head scratcher for me. Also, there are a few places where the fibers go very faint (like how I have noticeable gaps in my facial hair if I were to go a week without shaving) where throughout the rest of the chair they are extremely pronounced. I think it has an orangey tint to it. Not a rope edge and no labels, though the collector I bought it from said it would have had one of the orange/red Venice labels. Does that mean Venice like the Eames office or just some warehouse in Venice that Zrnith owned? Would be cool if these chairs came from an adjacent building or something. Anyhow, what's up with the D? What color might this be? What are the dates associated with such details. By the way, these legs take boot glides not some of silence.
most likely...
1952-54 ish or thereabouts, and yes the Venice shells were made at the Eames office in Venice, California.
For some reason, about 19 out of 20 Venice shells have no labels. Sometimes a label "ghost" or residue is present though. It seems like many of these shells may have never had labels to begin with.
Looks like a few small drill holes in the shell have been well patched.
There is an outside chance that it could also be a 3rd generation Zenith. (If you were to find three tiny raised dots in a triangular pattern near the center area between the four shock mounts) 3rd gen shells usually have small mounts, but as I mentioned somewhere above, a few large mount transitional shells have the 3-dot embossment. If so, that might indicate a slightly later date (Say 1954-55?) It is more than likely a true Venice shell though.
The "D" on the x base is not uncommon, but I don't know what it stands for. Perhaps dining height?
Hard to tell from the photo, but the color looks like some sort of pale yellow or natural resin color. It does not look like the parchment Venice shells that I have, which are lighter and whiter with and translucent, with less loud fiber than yours. I have a similar color shell as this one, and I am still not sure what color name it is. It is clearly not the "lemon yellow" which is much brighter and more translucent.
The patchy areas where the fiber is less present is not uncommon, and simply due to the hand-made process. The resin color is more solid in those places so sometimes it looks a little darker. Probably looked that way since the day it was made.
The photo is so close up that I feel like an ant.. No, not THAT Aunt! (Mark)
Drill holes? Gasp
No holes to speak of. I swear my heart hit the floor when I read that. Also, no raised dots (and I've seen em before) between the shocks. The guy I bought it from said he thought there might be something like the ghost label you mentioned but I simply can't find anything. Pretty neat these were made at the Eames office, perhaps Charles sneezed on it or Ray piled a bunch of stuff on it. It is a color I've not seen before either. I'll look for a picture of it but I have a elephant grey arm shell with Herman Miller paper patent label underneath (no embossment) and is ink stamped on the label 1950 (august I think). Based on what I've read in these forums there is low way that is true right? It has no rope edge and doesn't look toe like a zenith (not as fibrous). I'll try to post tomorrow. You have all been most insightful.
hmmm....
So sorry, I didn't mean to shock you, as I assumed you might have already been aware...
I might be wrong, but I dunno, if you look a few inches directly above the stamped "D" in the x base-- a few inches in the photo I mean, as it is large-- (where there is a strong sheen or shine in the photo) it seems that there MIGHT be two to four smallish holes-- filled with light grayish filler of some kind. The sheen on the surface of the shell shows the sculptural edges of a couple of the holes, and the holes appear to be in a pretty straight line.
(I refer to the top photo)
I hope I am wrong, but I looked again, and it still looks the same to me. Maybe its just the photo. Or I am just hallucinating.
Glad to be of help otherwise!
Three dots with Z shaped S??
So I know there are a lot of posts talking about this in other threads, but I was never to fully able to understand what the consensus was. I have two parchment armshells, same batch, with the Z shaped backwards S inside three dots in between the shocks. Small shocks. H bases. Are they Zenith or Summit? Approximate years? Thanks all. I really enjoy and appreciate the sage counsel that all you regulars offer. I hope to be on the other side of this bridge in short time.
3- dots
...and a Z shaped backwards S.
Drives me nuts too. Every time I have asked this question, it has been met with a resounding silence.
I have exactly one of these, a small-mount bright lemon yellow shell with only an embossed "H" and no other markings or labels-- except for the above stated dots and symbol.
There seems to be no clear info that sets this one apart from the typical 3-dot shell, so at this point it seems most logical to assume that it is just another variation of the 3rd generation Zenith.
54-55-56 was going to be my best guess, but you say they are on H bases? Do the H bases have the metal swivel glides from 1956? Because of the H bases, maybe the symbol came along slightly after the first 3 dot shells?
With these transitional shells the dates always seem to draw a lot of difference of opinion. The mystery persists, so that says something too.
Sometimes various back-stories and/or original bases that came along with some of my 3 dot shells helps to narrow dates down.
I am definitely not conclusive on any of this, and would appreciate hearing from anyone about any individual purchase dates or facts that nail down even one specific date. Evidence!
so looking more like...
the "Z shaped like a backwards S" symbol might have been added to the 3 dots later in the game. (Based on the 1957 or later H bases)
And the 3 dots (alone) dates span from the end of the Venice large mount era, all the way to the 1957 H bases with plastic glides.
(Added note: Early version Summit shells seem to have started around 1955-56, so again, overlapping production)
I bet there are some 3 dot shells on H bases without the symbol also though.
(Just to keep us guessing)
Thanks bshop22
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