Must say I agree with both...
Must say I agree with both Vivianne & Antonella here...
I don't think workers always have a choice where to work. Some people are willing to take any kind of job just to be able to support themselves and their families... Not everyone can afford to spend their days and nights on this forum...
Still, I think I've heard something about that they are now able to produce fiberglass furniture in an environment that is safer for the workers? I'm not sure, but since HM and Vitra first stopped making them in fiberglass in the late 80's, because of exactly the reasons Antonella describes and then Vitra is now producing the Lachaise in fiberglass, I guess they must have found a safer way to do them? Also Modernica is making the reproductions in fiberglass... But I'm no expert on materials.
Hello Alexandersforum.
Point taken re. workers and whatever, but hey! a jobs a job!. I like to spend as much time on the binternet as possible, however, i also work at the same time and usually work very late with regular 16 / 17 hour days 7 days a week, i work for myself as well as helping out in other places,so although im one of these people who can afford to spend all day and night on this forum i earn that privilege honey.
sorry vivianne, I absolutely...
sorry vivianne, I absolutely didn't want to suggest that you are lazy and never had a proper job...
I work as a visual artist myself and feel privileged to be able to support myself doing what I do, even though I seem to be working at all times and also sometimes deal with hazardous materials too... And I also think most people try to find a job that they enjoy. Still, many people have to take whatever is being offered, even if it's dangerous or just plain boring.
I also think that you are doing a great 'job' contributing here on the board. I always enjoy reading your posts. I just felt I had to comment on that remark about workers having a choice...
best, alex
No problem honey..
no offence at all taken.I know i have a big mouth and sometimes it says things without thinking!, Its sometimes hard for me to explain what i want to without sounding bossy!,im really a very quiet and shy person you know, and to be honest i am a little bit lazy. Im aware about all the fuss regarding fibreglass and airbourne particles etc. but i just like the designs!.
may I clarify...
...some technical aspects. Whith the term fiberglass we most often refer to fiberglass re-enforced polyester or epoxy. Technically this does not make more sense than to call all things "covered" with chocolate, chocolate. I know that the La Chaise was originally produced in fiberglass re-enforced polyester...as most of Eames' and Sarinnen's early work. I have not seen the new Vitra version but from Gerrit, I understand that it is in a similar material as the Vitra version of the Verner Panton's chair , which is made in glass fiber re-enforced Polypropylene. Although P.P. can be very glossy, the glassfiber content will force you the make the mould textured because it otherwise shows off the flow lines of the fibers. Although I would not do it, in both cases it is technically coorect to refer to it as fiberglass, simply because it refers to the re-enforcement. By the way the same is done with carbon fibers. No matter what the binding material is we always refer to the re-enforcement and call it carbon fiber.
As far as the dangers in use and in manufacturing is concerned. Short fibers in a thermoplastic resin like P.P. are harmless in production because they are part of the granulate and are never present in an airborn form. In thermo-setting resins like polyesters or epoxies they are either inbedded in the resins (so called pre-pregs) or used as strands (non woven) or woven mats. Finally they can be projected as short fibers in combinatiuon with the resin or separately from the resin. In this last case workers are protected by completely closed scaphander-like suits with air-intakes outside of the work space. Glassfiber has a tendency to move slowly inside the resin. not by it's own but pushed by the mouvement of the resin. In polyester resins the gel-coat (the coloured layer without glassfiber that covers the outside) is often enough to prevent the glassfiber from coming through. In short fiber re-enforcements this phenomena does seem to be less common because the fibers are too short to hve anough adhesion with the resin to be pushed effectively.
I agree that designers should be concerned about the way materials are transformed and the inherent dangers of certain materials. From some woods that cause noose bleeding to cancer causing asbestos. At the same time, I know that for most of these situations there are safe solutions, including the transformation and use of asbestos fibers. Natural materials often seem to be the obvious solution...untill we realize that nature can not possibly sustain the needs of the billions of people that try to live on planet earth. To often the so called "better, more natural solution" is an elitarian solution and although I strongly support anything that is in harmony with the natural environment, we should also consider that aspect. For the time being and for some time to come (until reason will convince us to reproduce more moderately) we are simply too many.
hmm koen
the new version of the panton and the lachaise are not made out of the same material. i've misspelled my sentence a bit. (the panton now is in polyprop, as are the Dax, Daw, Dsx, Dsr, Dsw and Dar chairs by the eames) the lachaise is still in fiberglass. what i meant to say is that these fiberglass is not the same as the one used 30 years ago or so. Vitra is producing chairs nowadays in other material then they were designed in. nothing wrong with that; i find it even better to adapt 'old' designs to new ways of production, to new materials.
But, koen, when i was a student one of the assignments was to design a modern wooden sledge as reaction to the old designs of the 'davos'sledges and as a reaction to the plastic models. You are stating in your last message to use natural materials in relation with their environment; wood is ok, when used from replanted forrests but is always better then plastic? no? i have seen your design of a ..plastic..sledge. wich could mean that although we as designers want to make a better world, want to keep in mind the right materials etc we are also 'prostitues' of the economy and the companies that pay us. As for james; yes carbon fibre furniture exists; one example: the co6 by pol quadens. also check out; www.karboxx.com and the composites on tour exhibition
http://designmatcher.com/nl/gallery_detail.php?galleryID=2316
Wood if used properly in...
Wood if used properly in manufacturing is sustainable, but also we have to take into consideration that fortunately there are some synthesis materials that are harmless as well. For example Bio-plastic, a kind of plastic that is made from soy beans instead of petroleum, is more sustainable than petroleum plastic. La Chaise could be made with the use of Bio-plastic. It would be just as beautiful as the other one; maybe more. The fibreglass used by Vitra in 1990 is harmful more or less like the other types of fibreglass. Why not using better materials? I think it would put even more value on classic designs like La Chaise.
Another good synthesis polymer is Kevlar as it is used instead of asbestos. We can use both good natural stuff and good synthetic stuff, but we have to avoid bad synthetic stuff (bad natural stuff is rare and never so bad in object production).
I agree with Koen. An over populated world means a poorer world, but most people do not know about it. As designers (as a design student I regard myself as a designer) in addition to encourage people to use contraception we should make some pressure to the industry to produce products that are not especially designed to break with the use.
Hi Gerrit and Antonella...
First of all thank you for the additional information on the Vitra La Chaise...you learn every day!
I am surprised by your reaction on plastics versus other materials. As far as the plastic sleds are concerned, I have been quite good in keeping them in the vicinity 0f 900 mPt. (sorry for those who are less familiar with Eco-units) which I think is quite good. As a matter of fact I have not seen yet a wooden sled with the same safety/sliding etc. features that would even be close to 900 mPt. Wood, especially used properly is a wonderfull material but so is plastic. It's petroleum origins gives it a little bit of a bad name, but consider the fact that all the plastics that we use, including all the applications in which it reduces energy consumption (insulation, light weight, chemical resistance etc.) only use 2% of the oil we are pumping up...or digging out as in the Alberta oil sands. Imagine the uproar that would be created if of every 100 trees we cut, we would burn 98 and use two for all furniture, consruction, paper, and all other possible uses of wood. That's what we do with plastics. Apart from the pollution that comes with it's transformation (much like metals, wood and all other materials that you transform) it is not a polluting material. It stays harmless untill age, U.V. light and a few other factors reduce it's original qualities. As long as it can be identified (which in recycling can be done by floating it in water with different salt solutions) it recycles quite well. Not necessarely to its original quality but not unlike paper where the fiber length is also reduced by re-cycling. At a certain level of cultural developement (a minimum of furniture for every inhabitant of this planet), wood is not sustainable Antonella! It is right now...although quite a number of original forets would have to be restaured) because the users of wood are such a small percentage of the world's population. I do not find any harm in Bio-plastic,but again, it has to grow somewhere...and why is al of a sudden Kevlar a "good" plastic?? I do not think that you want your fire protective suite to be made out of it!
If we want to have any hope for a more harmonious co-existance between ourselfes and the rest of nature, we will have to base it on knowledge, not on good will alone and not on prejudice or borrowed opinions.
I don't have prejudice on...
I don't have prejudice on anything. If something is harmful I say : "There are so many different materials around. Lets use the good ones." As I said, there are some good synthesis materials as well.
You know about wood... it is sustainable if you use it for furniture. It is not sustainable if you use it for paper. All the waste of wood in our society is caused by advertising mail and excessive press. Consider that in Britain we have most houses built with wood structures, and that's sustainable.
I love this forum. I hope that together we can create a good trend to communicate to the world.
Wow guys, I didn't expect my...
Wow guys, I didn't expect my tread to take such a technical direction... You're never too old to learn, thanks all for the elaborate and accurate precisions!
Who actually owns this chair on the forum? And where did you find and at what price? I love the stories of objects..
have a nice day!
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