Eames ESU - Where's the best price?  

no one is saying you are...
no one is saying you are wrong Lucifersum and out to lunch!!!
What finch and barrympls and my self are saying so what if we want a ESU cause it looks cool and we want to house are modern stereo equipment and flat panel T.V.s. do we have to go to Federal Prison?
I think it is great that you are so pure in your thinking but don't be a hypocrite if you stop with the ESU go all the way with so many things that have been bastardized from the original design and to many to list.
a student at Harvard plagiarizing from a published books of works hardly compares to modification of a ESU to
accomodate modern equipment,
As far as Modernica and modernwood works I can not critizine them the
forum people have spoken and say their furniture is good quality and made in America by Americans what can be so bad about that??
As far as my collection after 30 years of spending good hard earned money cause the originals were out there I have to say the times have changed. If some person young or old wants to improve there look with a classic shelf or anything for that matter who am I to say that is wrong wrong wrong,
This conversation came up several months ago, and I think one of the most respected members of this forum by the name of Koen expressed his views on reproductions and reproducing these pieces, maybe he would be kind enough to restate his views again or check the past archives,
What ever any one says you have the right to state your views and how you feel about reproductions and modifications , and for that I respect your opion. right or wrong

please correct me if I am ...
please correct me if I am wrong and i am sure someone will,
If I do remember what Koen said was only original artwork is protected like a Chagall or Picasso.
as far as the Eames foundation prosecuting anyone for reproducing similar pieces.
I think that would be highly unusual unless they had labels that said Eames all over it,
Now Herman Miller has prosecuted before for trade dress violations. on the lounge chair.

It is interesting....
It is interesting which designs these companies have gone after and which designs these companies have not.
During the height of the popularity and sales of Saarinen's Tulip collection, conmpanies like Burke were knocking them off AT THE TIME left and right, and apparently Knoll was not very proactive about it.
If Herman Miller has ever gone after all of the nelson bench knockoffs, then they certainly were not too successful....'cause they be all da place, mon.
Cassina hasn't done too much about the knockoff La Courbusier stuff, other to indicate how to spot Cassina's own trademarking on their legitmate pieces.
My rule of thumb; buy an original (either vintage or current) and to stay clear of the knockoffs, except:
- when an original can not be obtained (due to being out of production)
- when, in the case of the ESU, the original price is so bloody high and the buyer needs a modification for a big TV, etc.
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The only known knockoffs I own is a Wassily chair (which I bought locally) and an Eileen Gray round chrome and glass side table.
All of my other pieces are originals.
Similarly, I against buying bootleg CDs or DVDs, but I have occasionally broken the rule ONLY because I could not find them legitimately. (In the case of bootleg DVDs, when they come out legitimately, I immediately buy it and get rid of my bootleg copy.)
I'm only mentioning this because, in my case, once a real copy can be had, my copy goes out the door.
This is my modified way of true to the artist.....but, if the "powers that be" don't make the item available, then, if I want one, I'm gonna get one.
Finally, I want a Nelson tray table, which is completely unavailable in the US. Vitra does make it for the European market, and even though Vitra and Herman Miller have a close relationship, apparently either Herman Miller won't let Vitra sell it here in the US, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASSED ON SELLING IT THEMSELVES, or Vitra is not organized enough to arrange for passed-on Herman Millers to be sold through Vitra.
Either way, the European version is so bloody expensive that if I could find a quality knockoff, I'd be all over it.

What is the difference?
Modifying someone's text for personal gain, and modifying someone's designs for personal gain are exactly the same.
I dont disagree that the price of the ESU is high, I just dont find that a valid excuse for buying a knock-off - no matter how well it's made.
And LRF - I dont want to deprive you of your flat screen television - but if an ESU can't be configured to fit - why not choose a different piece of furniture all together? There are hundreds of vintage credenzas, cabinets, and hutches out there that would fit.

OK....let's leave it at that
Lucifersum said:
I dont disagree that the price of the ESU is high, I just dont find that a valid excuse for buying a knock-off - no matter how well it's made.
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OK...looks like you've got your opinion and either you just disagree with my and LRF or don't quite see the difference....perhaps a bit of both.
Hopefully we can still be friends...

Come on! I think it's fine...
Come on! I think it's fine to disagree -- keeps things interesting. There should be no ruffled feathers.
My only point was that there is is some gray area here. For Example, when Ford reintroduces the Thunderbird a few years back, and it looks like a bastardization of the 55-56-57 T-birds, BUT, is made by the same company with licensing to the brand -- you are paying for the brand, not the essence of the article itself. Or when a perfumer changes some key ingredient to a flagship fragrance, but is still the creator/licensed distributor for said. Me, I would still prefer the original T-Bird built-up or restored from reproduction parts and fenders, as well as the original fragrance, perhaps distilled by some other company, etc., etc.
That said, I am a buyer and proponent of originals and/or licensed jobs, if for no other reason than the company having a reputation at stake. However, I have a nuts and bolts view of the ESU and I know when a fleecing is a fleecing, brand or no brand. Let me ask you this: would you still pay three thousand of our weak and flagging US Dollars for an ESU from Herman Miller if it were made in a factory next to MW's, or Modernica's using the same lumber and hardware and the same grade of carpenters from the same community -- the only difference being maybe a foil label and the subsidization of somebody's new yacht? I'm afraid it really is that relative.
We can intellectualize it all day long, which I love to do, but I guess me, personally, I was in a nuts and bolts mindset about the ESU. If you have six thousand extra dollars for an original, or are saving for one, I think that's beautiful.

finch barrympls and lucifersu...
finch barrympls and lucifersum ......
I get a discount at Herman Miller and my price is not what the retail is...So you say so what....
I still would modify the Herman miller in a second if they were willing to accommodate my new specifications , to fit my 42 inch flat panel TV, why should i want to go buy something that i don't like when i want the look of the classic ESU,
It is not a fake, a reproduction, or a rip off. It is made by the original company modified to meet modern equipment, plain and simple and NO SIN, If you want a Porsche no need to get a Pontiac solsa and say it is a convertible, now if you are working with price you should all ways buy what you can afford,
I am glad I have a few good guys on my side on this one , no one is trying to win one or loose one,
Do not think any one is ganging up on you lucifersum, like you and Robert1960 ganged up on me.
I take nothing personal, been doing this to long, I have a opion right or wrong, there is no supreme court of Designer furniture to plead your case and point to, you are your own judge and jury and what you want to do is your own business and best for you, what the others want to do fits their lifestyle and that is really the last word from me on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dis/Agree
Barry and Finch, I know a fleecing when I see it (which is why I dont own an ESU -vintage or new)
LRF - I think we can agree to disagree. This might, in fact, be the most civil conversation we've had - there's still hope!
This is what discussions on DA should be - a dialogue about the details, not shouting matches or name calling.
I think this has been a really good, involved, rational, well informed posting on all parts. I dont at all feel like I've been ganged up on 😀

LRF - I think we can agree...
LRF - I think we can agree to disagree. This might, in fact, be the most civil conversation we've had - there's still hope!
............maybe...........