Modern Woodworks, however,...
Modern Woodworks, however, I've already discussed on the forum. His willingness to alter the materiality, design, and modularity of the ESUs throws his credibility right out the window. It proves my point that folks like him - however personable he may be - don't really understand 'design'. He's like an art forger: ...
Forgery? A rather hyperactive indictment, I think. Frankly, I think this very modular design lent itself to revision and I suspect that Charles&Ray would not have been the purists that you are, preferring instead to keep the design relevant to todays needs. I prefer the original configurations/options, but that's me.
And R&D is a big issue - no matter how long ago it was done. None of these designs would exist without that R&D and thats important to remember...
This is a tricky issue. I wasn't trying to diminish the importance of the original R&D by pointing out that it was paid for many times over a long time ago -- just as Fritz Lang's early films, which are public domain, are no less relevant for it.
I think the issue here is, if you want a shell manufactured in the purist vein, Modernica's crap forgeries are the way to go. That, or, buy vintage at rabid collector prices which doesn't help the foundations or families either.
Repro issue aside...
Patrick+Alix, how would you feel if one of your sponsors tells you you shouldn't be doing business with another sponsor (who happens to be very good sponsor). What if you received this same letter?
An awkward position, yes? You want to do the right thing, but that sponsor generates revenue that helps you make a great website/magazine.
If you prefer not to comment (like Dwell), I totally understand.
I wonder if Dwell was singled out, or if other magazines received the same letter as part of some new initiative.
Finch
The ESUs are modular, yes, but within rational and logical parameters. Charles Eames was an architect and knew his orders. Can the same be said for ModernWoodworks? Or can he simply copy the established configurations set out by the Eames? We've seen from past threads on this topic that ModernWoodworks designs fall apart when he moves off of the already established path. Proportions elongate and deepen, odd numbers are introduced, and funny finishes appear.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The ESU series are more than dimpled doors and cross-braces.
Whitespike - my point was 'who determines materiality?' In the Eames' case it fell upon the family and upon Herman Miller/Vitra to change the fibreglass to poly. Some argue that this is an illegitimate change since the Eames were not directly involved. But again I reference the 670 Lounge - when the wood veneer was switched to cherry and walnut. Max Depree is quoted in the Eames Lounge book describing the cherry as "bland looking" and saying he thought "but I understand that rosewood wasnt available."
Here you've got the president of Herman Miller saying that he understands changes in materials to accomodate environmental issues which further legitimizes the switch to poly. Modernica is making the chairs with a bad material, which is out of line with the intent of the Eames family/Eames manufacturer. I understand (even if I dont totally agree with) the argument for things that are out of production - but the Eames shell chairs arent out of production.
We do agree on many points, so let's shake hands.
I completely agree with the your assessment of modern wood works. I am not a fan of anyone changing a designer's proportions. Proportions are everything.
I also completely agree that changing the fiberglass chair to poly was an obvious evolution. That doesn't mean that I like it. I understand the evolution of the DCM to the EC-127. Filling up a landfill with Eames chairs is not something DAs would contribute to, so I don't want to be "punished" for it. That kind of activity is designated for the contract market; universities, government buildings, etc.
I will have to interject to say that my cherry lounge looks anything but bland. I love the red tones of cherry. When you get bland, poorly designed traditional office suites out of your mind and see this chair in a home setting it's quite different than what you would expect.
We'll have to agree that on this board of passionate design junkies, Modernica is a gray area where many of us will just not agree. We all have our reasons.
I am glad that a company is searching out the correct way to reproduce these items. If you read our new DA's thread (I apologize I cannot remember his name of the top of my head) you can learn a few things about his business. He normally sells traditional antiques "in the manner of" because the designs he sells are of a vintage where the "real" items are completely unavailable, even to the rich. One day these modern designs will be even older, even more expensive, and virtually unavailable to anyone. Just like we are expected to understand the evolution of the plastic chair, we should look even further past our noses. When this occurs, and it will, what do you think Charles and Ray's attitude would be then? To let their designs completely fall out of our consciousness? or to keep their legacy alive ... through another producer. Are we paying Charles and Ray homage or worshiping the manufacturer who's only contribution was the smarts to know genius when it arrived and the capital to do something about it. I am much more interested in the designer and the design than the manufacturer. Modernica shells are made correctly. To me, they are Eames chairs. You can even find them on Wright.com for sale as Eames chairs. Wright is nly one of the most prominent auctions houses for modern design.
When the day comes that these designs are finally completely unavailable the proper answer would be to move along and to finally support the new designers that so deserve it. But, if you want a piece of mid century goodness, you will have to depend on companies like Modernica to FAITHFULLY reproduce your favorite piece of history. Of course I am referring to the universal "you." We'll be gone then.
esu
...We've seen from past threads on this topic that ModernWoodworks designs fall apart when he moves off of the already established path. Proportions elongate and deepen, odd numbers are introduced, and funny finishes appear...
The fact is, the ESUs were introduced in a few different finishes, including some darker walnut veneers. I have photographic evidence to this effect. They may seem funny if you've only ever seen the blonde versions, but they are actually quite handsome.
The ESU is indeed more than dimple doors and cross braces...but not much more. Sorry, it's true. This is one of the more stripped down, primary, functional pieces the Eameses ever produced.
I personally prefer the original configurations, but I think it's just purist speculation, the idea that this design would not have been adapted in some way. It's just so basic that it lends itself to it. I don't like it, don't prefer it, but I concede it.
I think it is possible to be a purist, but to remain objective.
I think it is also possible to think too much about your furniture.
Finch - A DA overthink furnit...
Finch - A DA overthink furniture? Impossible!
Whitespike - I didnt use that quote to pass judgement on the cherry - only to illustrate a point. I love the 670 in just about any finish 🙂
Some holes in your argument about the 'when and if' these designs are no longer produced. First - you speak of legacy - which is the responsibility of Eames Demetrios and Herman Miller. It is not Modernica's place to 'preserve' these designs because HM is STILL making the shells - and doing so in a way that keeps them culturally relevant.
Also - with very few exceptions (like the Grasshopper) Modernica produces designs that are currently available elsewhere, through licensed production houses. That doesnt fit very well into your defense of them as preservationists. Why, for instance, arent they producing the LaFonda chairs instead of the standard shells? Or Noguchi Fin stools instead of the Cyclone table?
HM deserves more credit than you give them. They've done a lot for recognizing the significance of their history and re-issuing classics like the Eames, Nelson etc. Thats not 'worshiping' the company it's acknowledging the actions that HM is taking in order to keep these designs alive. Which is an important point because it demonstrates that Herman Miller is actively working to keep your scenario from happening.
PS - despite my innate tendency to be contrarian I accept the majority of opinons expressed here on DA and I highly respect the eloquent and thorough manner in which most are expressed 😀 Its fun to have your views challenged.
If fiberglass
is thought of as an historic (and therefore historically correct) material for the shell chairs, then Modernica is doing us a service by making their chairs as they do. Let HM do the "up-to-date" thing, and Modernica fill the need for new examples of the classic design in its correct material. . .
Lucifer
Have you read "The Design of Herman MIller?" As early as the 70s George Nelson would not even take a call from the Herman Miller office. The only time Charles Eames communicated with them was to give them the occasional slap on the wrist. After DJ died it became a drastically different place with drastically different motives. DJ was it brother!
Even just a handful of years ago (early 2000s) Herman Miller took the right away for its locally owned dealers to sell their products. They awarded only big box store to carry their merch.
I am not saying they are all bad, but c'mon it pays to "recognize their history." Of course it does when their history involves the most famous modernists of our time.
I am also not saying that they should not produce the plastic chair. I am just saying that I don't like it and that Modernica has provided the version which is no longer available.
At one point Modernica was providing the only ESU. The provide the shells chairs. They provide the Grasshopper. They provide the Nelson lamps (with the nod of approval by George's wife). Their Case Study dining chair is a very early Nelson design. They make a George Nelson daybed and bed. Their Case Study Sofa and chair is a reproduction of the Nelson Loose Cushion Series. Their Split Rail Sofa and chair is a repro of the Knoll Parallel Bar Sofa. They make the Wegner Poppa Bear lounge chair.
I believe that most or all of these are currently unavailable. And their is more. Should I keep going?
On top of that they a still have a handful of interesting original benches, tables, and chairs. Of course they will make more reproductions however, that is what the public buys and what keeps them in business.
In addition to this, the owners personal collection is staggering. He runs a prop rental for movies. You don't get this much quality modern stuff because you don't really like it and just want to make a buck.
To top it all off they also run a Modernica dog rescue out of their headquarters!
Historic Material
If someone is a purist enough to desire the historic materials wouldnt they also be too purist to buy a copy?
Also - historically significant doesnt equal good. Ford's Pinto historically blew up if hit from behind with the left blinker on. Nobody questioned the decision to fix that little design flaw because it represented the best interest of the people (and less lawsuits against Ford).
You can't simultaneously argue that Modernica is 'preserving' designs and then criticize Herman Miller for doing exactly the same thing! Look, I know we're never going to see eye to eye on this. I think Modernica has some admirable qualities - and if they pushed those qualities to creating new, fresh designs I'd be even more impressed. They've shown that they have the design chops AND the audience to do it. If they dropped stuff that is currently being produced under license (and possibly licensed some of the designs which arent available) they would have a much more robust argument as preservationist. They could also pick up dozens of other designs that have fallen by the wayside. Imagine Modernica making the George Mulhauser lounge, or instead of the ESUs they could make the MoMA Competition case goods?
For the record: I dont agree with everything HM does. They suffer problems that plague most gigantic corporations, including yanking distribution from small retailers. But HM makes its money in cubicles - not in modern classics. They are doing their part to keep these designs in the cultural lexicon.
Nobody knows what the Eameses would think
of the current state of their furniture collections.
From all that I've read, both Charles and Ray designed their furniture with design, quality AND economy figured into their creations. I have never read that they thought themselves as being in the luxury furniture business.
For the most part, Herman Miller's pricing for the Eames pieces are in keeping with the way of the current world, although I DO think the Eames Sofa is a bit high.
NOW....Vitra's Eames pieces are ridiculously expensive. Shame on them for thinking that they are strictly luxury makers.
I DO believe, however, that the Eameses would be totally in line with being totally environmently safe and appropriate. They would've stepped right up to the plate to remove the latex foam from their upholstered pieces, and they would've come up with some alternative to fiberglass. That's absolutely certain, based on their organic view of the world.
Lucifer
"Ford's Pinto historically blew up if hit from behind with the left blinker on. Nobody questioned the decision to fix that little design flaw because it represented the best interest of the people (and less lawsuits against Ford)"
I don't know, I just think this is a weird comparison. People blowing up vs. fiberglass chairs. It's a bit extreme IMO.
"You can't simultaneously argue that Modernica is 'preserving' designs and then criticize Herman Miller for doing exactly the same thing!"
Huh? I didn't criticize Herman Miller for preserving designs. Just like I never said Plycraft was a great company. Actually my beef couldn't be more opposite. I said I didn't personally like that they changed the materials of the design. I also followed that I didn't think this was out of line with the Eameses design ethics, and that it was just a matter of my personal taste. Geez! Are you reading what I am saying, or are too busy thinking about the next argumentative thing to say?
"They could also pick up dozens of other designs that have fallen by the wayside. Imagine Modernica making the George Mulhauser lounge, or instead of the ESUs they could make the MoMA Competition case goods?"
Great idea, but again I am confused. Two minutes ago you were against them reproducing vintage designs.
"HM makes its money in cubicles - not in modern classics."
Don't kid yourself. I know they make a lot of money with contract furniture. But if they didn't bank with modern classics they would can it. How many people on this planet want a Herman Miller Eames lounge chair? Each year tons of them reach their goal. At almost 4K a pop, I would say they make a healthy profit ... and that's just one design.
I'm not trying to be a bitch. I just feel like you keep assuming things about what I am saying and filling in the blanks for yourself. If you are going to constantly challenge me, do me the favor of representing my words as they were intended.
In addition, know that I think a lot of what you say makes a sense. I do stop and read your comments and consider them. You obviously have a lot of knowledge, and you obviously care about design. I love that. I just get the feeling that you are more concerned with winning a war that doesn't exist than hearing me out - mainly because your descriptions of my words are less than accurate.
I wonder if Eames Demetrios wrote a letter to Wright as well....
Do the following listings erode the credibility of Wright?
(click the links below photos to read the Wright's item descriptions):
http://www.wright20.com/wn/category/seating/_chairs/individual_lots/sea_...
Second link:
There is no ambiguity in who the auction house ascribes these chairs to:
Charles And Ray Eames
....
Modernica
So wouldn't the Eames family find this even worse of an offense, especially considering the source is a noted and respected auction house, referring to Modernica product as in fact by Charles and Ray Eames.
(click link below photo)
http://www.wright20.com/wn/category/seating/_chairs/individual_lots/sea_...
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