Good definition of terms
My one suggestion is that you modify "reproduction" with "licensed reproduction". There are too many folks out there churning stuff out under the auspices of 'authentic reproductions' , or 'highest quality reproductions'. The only imperical qualifier is whether the product is licensed (as in Vitra Nelson clocks) or it is not (alphaville Barcelona).
Thanks, Lucifer
You're right.
Perhaps the gang who run this excellent website will put it on the front page of the forum...and ask everybody to adhere to it.
If we can agree on those terms, it'll be a hellavalot easier to discuss the ins and outs of this stuff.
By the way, I almost bought a knockoff Negushi Dining Room Table...'cause it's so damn cool, but at the last minute, a friend sold me a real Eames dining/conference table for $100.00.....
and that brings me to my final thought: with the other posting about the Eames Lounge Chair, etc., since I started collecting this stuff, I've always believed in HAPPY MISTAKES; I want one thing and find another at a good price and it still works in with my overall plan.
I don't want my living room to look like I paid some joker to deocrate it for me! My motto is; if it's good design, it works with other examples of good design.
here here I love the hunt...
here here I love the hunt of finding mid century modern furniture, When i made my conversation to modern man from
Traditonal furntiture owner ie Baker furniture and some Baker Modern michael taylor, i felt like a traitor as my whole family had owned Baker since the turn of the century, but i felt i wanted something different the last half of my life , and modern is it,
To me and i say I am blessed to be able to own just about any thing that comes to mind( sorry folks not from my little chair recovering business) It is so much fun to just go out with a open mind either in Dallas NYC LA or anywhere and Estates sales here in my home town and be able to find great treasures that i know will work perfect in my home, great fun, I wish every one could have that much fun to find swans,eggs,cones,marshmellows,brnos,barcelonas
and many more. It is one big hunt with out a shot gun,
Terminology...
Barrympls, I like your terminology...but there is one more entirely valid catagory that, for me is a crucial distinction...
What do we call a piece that is being made by a company other than the 'license-holder' of the name of the piece or the designer, where that piece is made faithfully to the original design. That design is public domain, but the name of the piece or the name of the designer of that piece is held by another company that claims that unless you buy it from them the piece is illegitimate, which is of course horse-hockey.
This is my biggest gripe with all of this. I think it's entirely sleazy to own the rights to a name and claim sole legitimacy of a design because of that. And then to charge outreageous sums on top of that...disgraceful!!
I propose that well-made pieces that are made according to original specs, but using modern methodologies, is a legitimate reproduction no matter who makes it as long as the design itself is not legally protected.
chair bases
LRF -- if you mean the they changed the tine style spangle base to the stem/star base last year, that is incorrect. I've seen th stem/star base in chairs as early as 1982. In fact, I own a FH egg that has the stem/star base from 1984. I went with it because it had tilt, whereas the old chairs with the spangle base did not.
a summary offered
i appreciate the attention so many are giving to this thread. hopefully what follows in my post here will be a positive contribution.
it appears the verbiage proposed by barrympls gets us a majority of the distance toward the finish line, and i do give a thumbs-up to olive for a hearty adendum. so then, what about this framework:
A. ORIGINAL
1. Vintage - self explanatory
2. Current - items either kept in production over the years or reintroduced by the same maker with the same level of quality
B. REPRODUCTION
1. Licensed - legal items liscensed to be made by a company different from its original manufacture (like George Nelson's clocks being made by Vitra or the Bubble Lamps being made by Modernica)
2. Non-Licensed
a. Legitimate - well-made pieces that are made according to original specs, but using modern methodologies, regardless of manufacturer, provided the design itself is not legally protected
b. Illegitimate - also known as "knockoffs", these are failed attempts at reproducing designs that are poorly made, typically using inferior materials, workmanship and/or processes, regardless of intent or country of origin.
within such a construct, those of us who truly value good, honest design are still being asked to accept the notion that [as, i believe, olive has astutely posited] legitimacy has to do with this notion of reproductive quality. of course, this in itself could be a slippery slope as well, since the nature of such necessitates a sliding scale rather than a true/false test.
the aforementioned concession aside, does this seem to help? does this find resonance?
sounds good kdc
how about another revision?
A. ORIGINAL
B. LICENSED REPRODUCTION
C. NON-LICENSED REPRODUCTION, CLASS A
- high quality product, no illegal use of trademarks
D. NON-LICENSED REPRODUCTION, CLASS B
- good quality product, no illegal use of trademarks
E. NON-LICENSED REPRODUCTION, CLASS C
- poor quality product, no illegal use of trademarks
D. KNOCK-OFF: poor quality, illegal use of trademark on the product or advertising
as a retailer, alphaville recently gave us a report that one of their retail customers returned a broken "barcelona chair" (tm) knock-off from another manufacturer and tried to get a credit (stealing!). it had thinner steel, hidden bolts covered by the steel straps (not fully welded), different construction techniques, etc. (they all look the same to me until they point out the details). they said that these frames are made in china, possibly italy.
is knoll's chrome frame fully welded or do they use bolted construction, hidden by the straps. their chrome frames are sourced from italy and it retails for about $2000 less than their 304 stainless steel version.
It's getting too complicated
If this is going to work, then it must be simplified enough to cover everything and be fair and honest:
ORIGINAL (VINTAGE) - self explanatory
ORIGINAL (CURRENT) - items either kept in production over the years or reintroduced by the SAME maker with the same quality
REPRODUCTION(LISCENSED) - legal items liscensed to be made by a different company (like George Nelson's clocks being made by Vitra, the La Courbusier made by Cassina or the Bubble Lamps being made by Modernica)
KNOCKOFFS - both the La Courbusier, Eileen Gray, Breuer, and the Nelson benches being made in China by companies like Furniture Fancy or Alphaville, regardless of quality
I disagree with Olive
Love her (and the concrete tub) but I'm uncomfortable with the class of knock-offs that she is suggesting. There are two reasons why.
First: there is no qualifier as to the quality. We are only dealing with personal anecdote and opinion. What is to prevent an unreliable source from posting that their product is up to snuff? With a license holder there is a simple yes or no question: does the company hold the license?
Second: As someone who is creative myself I really feel irked by someone who will make profit off of someone else's ideas. I think such pieces ARE illegitimate. Companies like Herman Miller and Knoll put in resources to keep these designs alive. Those companies have paid for the rights to these pieces.
let the courts decide
i think it is time that this long standing forum debate be taken into the courts...
a judge or even the supreme court should decide how companies can protect their designs or design claims via patent law or trademark law.
patent law vs. trademark law... there is too much confusion and no concensus
personally, i think these companies using trademark law to skirt patent law will get burned. what do you think?
.
Terminology...
Barrympls, I like your terminology...but there is one more entirely valid catagory that, for me is a crucial distinction...
What do we call a piece that is being made by a company other than the 'license-holder' of the name of the piece or the designer, where that piece is made faithfully to the original design. That design is public domain, but the name of the piece or the name of the designer of that piece is held by another company that claims that unless you buy it from them the piece is illegitimate, which is of course horse-hockey.
This is my biggest gripe with all of this. I think it's entirely sleazy to own the rights to a name and claim sole legitimacy of a design because of that. And then to charge outreageous sums on top of that...disgraceful!!
I propose that well-made pieces that are made according to original specs, but using modern methodologies, is a legitimate reproduction no matter who makes it as long as the design itself is not legally protected.
_________________________________________________
That is Olive's last post above. I really don't see how anyone can argue with that. At least, it perfectly espresses my own feeling -- I think. The caveat is, did the original manufacturer, who still makes the piece, invest something unique into the piece that he deserves (still) to be paid for ?
Battle this on your own.
The main answer to battling increasing prices is to buy vintage when possible. True, many pieces are so iconic that it's cost prohibitive to do so. So new is the best option if you just HAVE to have an iconic piece.
My answer is that you don't have to overwelm your place with icons. Storage is possibly the most expensive thing to buy in the icon dept. I mix my iconic chairs with less iconic vintage pieces ... There are some great storage pieces that are extremely well made with no name attached to them.
I think that "finding" pieces allows you to create a more natural environment with a very "acquired" feel. True I have bought some items new, but the more I'm into this stuff the more rooms filled with NEW iconic items gets boring. It's interesting to see a place with one or two icons that make the place shine but paired with interesting things you haven't seen that make it unique. It's smart and more affordable in the end.
Although lovely, I'm tired of seeing places like this ... a new womb chair next to a new ESU next to a new nelson bench next to a lounge and ottoman next to a new ligne roset sofa next to .....
to Big Television Man
you are quite the poet.
i'm happy with my knock-offs and my originals...
yes, i screwed up with buying some shitty knock-offs before... and maybe i will again in the future. but some really great stuff in knock-off or repro land... that which you may never know as you spend your big bucks at Nieman-Marcus and Bloomingdales while shunning the great deals to be had at Target, Costco, DSW, and the outlet malls of America.
by the way, i'm happy with both my Porsche Turbo "SUV" and my Carrera 997S Cabriolet.
I feel your pain.
I want a Saarinen dining table very badly. I have a DWR a few minutes from home. I won't be buying from them. Honestly, I don't want to pair a perfect glossy white table with my imperfect vintage pieces. I like imperfections. I really really do! What is the Japanese term for this? For some reason sometimes cetain new pieces give me the willies. For some reason, some wear and tear give you this lovely feeling and more attachment to the piece. I find when I need to sell a piece for space and design constraints, I always opt to sell the new. The old ones just have a certain vibe that you can't replicate. Plus for resale vintage items hold value and go up, new items you sell are simple "used."
PS - I don't want the Saarinen piece because it's iconic. I want it because it solves all my dining design problems (and good design solves problems). I love in very small quarters so the two things that the Saarinen table employs is perfect: It is all white giving it a light and airy feeling, not too heavy on the eye and it has a simple pedestal which allows you to move chairs around it easily with maneuvering around legs (a must!).
If you need any help, please contact us at – info@designaddict.com