Design Within Reach is Full of It  

Some thoughts (pt.1)
Turbo - I understand your frustration with pricing and buying authentic vs. knock offs. It's a debate I think all of us have gone through.
However there are some things I think you should consider.
It seems harmless enough to want a design for the least amount of money - and therefore be willing to buy a knockoff BUT, you should be thinking about what attracts you to the design in the first place.
Eames, LeCourbusier, Mies etc. all devoted time and energy to their designs. The furniture they created is composed of form, craftsmanship, materials, function, and intellect. So to buy a knock-off you risk compromising the design in all of those areas.
Form: if you are buying simply for the 'look' of a classic design you are ignoring a significant part of the actual design. The main stable of designers created furniture and objects that solved problems: function, space, materials, etc. The aesthetic value is an important part of the design, but not the whole of it. Most places like Knockoff Inc. are simply interested in getting the most monetary return. The mindset becomes the look of the 'product' and not the function of its 'design'.
Craftsmanship: In order to avoid trade-dress litigation, and to keep manufacturing costs down Knockoff. Inc. is going to cut as many corners as possible to create an affordable 'product'. This is where the specifications of the designers come in. What the designer specified is not always the cheapest way to manufacture something, i.e. the hidden cushion mounts on the Eames' 670. A knockoff like Plycraft circumvented that tricky mechanism by screwing the cushions in through the veneer-compromising the look.
Materials: A company like Knockoff Inc - who is looking to undercut prices of legitimate designs (why else would a consumer buy a knockoff?) - is going to search out the path of least expense in the production of their 'product'. Again, disregarding the specifications of the designer regarding materials. Leather quality isnt going to be as good, metal quality, chroming, wood quality, etc. all come into question.
Function: Of course, if you've compromised the manufacture and the materials of a product, you've also compromised the function. If Knockoff Inc. is doing an LC2, and the leather feels like cardboard, and the cushions are cheap foam, then they've completely subverted the idea of a comfortable club chair that LC had when creating it.

Some thoughts (pt.2)
Intellect: One of the reasons that an authentic version costs more than a knockoff is because the company producing it is required to pay a license fee to the designer. This is a payment for the intellectual property that was put into the design in the first place, the same as an author receives royalties for writing a book. (and when a book is copied nobody hesitates to call it plagiarism!) This licensing fee also goes towards furthering the legacy of the designer, educating the public about their works, and preserving the integrity of the designs (which makes then famous to begin with) The LeCorbusier Foundation and the Eames Office are good examples of this.
The statement about the money going to the wrong people, in the wrong direction is actually fairly accurate. Buying a knockoff provides money to someone who has no vested interest in preserving the 'design' of a piece, or in the intent and legacy of the designer. And in many cases the manufacture of knockoffs come from countries with not so good rap sheets in terms of humane conditions for workers, i.e. living wages and safe work conditions.
As suggested in a previous post, you can still find good designs being produced by new designers today. Buying them promotes innovation and a willingness to move design, as a process, forward.
But if you're stuck on buying a classic...then I guess you're kind of stuck. Are you going to lie to people about a knockoff being the real thing? Or do you save up and commit to buying the real thing? (or just resolve yourself to the fact that might be out of the price range -I love Lamborghinis, but I'm never going to own one.)

And yes
And yes.. the Herman Miller sale being "serious" is just plain silly.

Great Points
Great points. Thank you for that. I would never sacrifice on a Porsche 911, but for some reason my love for brands hasn't extended to furniture. It's always been fairly non branded to me. But then again, things can change.
Thanks again

turbo11
You and i see eye to eye all the time. we both hate to be ripped off and see what phony baloney 1st dibs and DWR has gotten . i like the store but it kills me every time i go in there and see that stuff out of sight thank g-d for ebay and thank g-d i was smart enought to be able to buy all the fabulous stuff i did buy. I saved over $50,000 buying all the gems that i did rather than trying to buy them at full full retail new from those peole , ( so i had to spend some money to recover a few . but that is such a rip...

lucifersum is right
lucifersum is right but i would not expect anything else from her.
I am not a fan of knockoffs that is why i am so passionate about reporting what i see and know about phony knockoffs.
I do like good deals (part of my heritage I guess, and I do like to spend lots of money part of my heritage i guess and i hate to get ripped off. by %^$holes selling phony furnitue .
I have writeen till i have carpel tunnel in my hands about who is good and who is bad .. check archives ... DWR is real good , he started out selling knock offs and then got more upscale and Miller and knoll said we will not sell to you if you carry the phony stuff he cleared all that crap out and started carrying the good stuff . Sad thing Forbes said the poor guy has lost money for the last 20 quarters never showing a profit, ( i could be off since I am not a
C.F. A. and this is from reading it about 6 month ago , What does that tell you????
Hard to make a living waiting for us purest to come in and by a Mies chair from Knoll for $3200.00 or A Eames Lounge chair for 4000.00 yes Lucifer(if I may call you Lucifer
your logic is great, and you are well meaning and passionate but i think there has to be a happy medium reached about the Royalties of these 85 year old designs, but it is hard for me to complain....
my real business is the Oil and gas business ....
my family has been in the business for over 60 years and we get oil nad gas royalty checks every month from wells drilled on our family acreage .. so i know what Royalty is all about .

designer
My wife is a designer and we buy from knoll and Herman Miller and several other companies , both the two nicest companies to do buisess with and always a pleasure to go and see the great stuff, I do agree it is sad to see the prices that knoll charges, they a re so out of sight i can hardly believe it , even with our designer discounts it is out of sight. When you see a sarrine 70 chair for 1500 with some pretty fabic on it , Out cost around 900.00 per chair that is a killer for us.. if we are doing a small office and they need
12 chairs. and wanted sarrines
Most of the clinets we deal with really do not want us to go out to ebay and round up 20 chairs and recover them . They will buy knoll but
when the quote comes in for $20,000 for side chairs they say what else can you show us for say $8000.00 that, maybe has the feel of saarine same with Eames they want the look the feel. We never feel we are waisting our time cause they buy from us and we will always make up 3 or 4 original armshells with a Girard fabric or Eames Fabric on it to give it a real spiced up flavor. or throw some vintage funiture redone that
they love but it seems 99 percent of our clinets really don't care
The ones that want modern offices tell us to go out and get those
Mies or Carbusia chairs in Red . for some reason i don't think they are that concerned about that chair being from knoll,or Cassenia.

It's Sabotage
It seems like the business of selling licensed classics is in desperate need of some "adjustments". Maybe it's because design/art is blending into business, and in those cases, design usually brings business down.
Knoll, Cassina, and the others have suggested prices that all their dealers must adhere to. In the process, companies go a little overboard on overhead maybe, but bottomline is Knoll, Cassina, etc, are setting their dealers up for going out of business. What then? Rather than adjustments in prices that would certainly help these items convert better, it's holding firm to the existing pricing model, which is BROKEN.
Luxury brands, especially in daily use products like AUTOMOTIVE learn. They develop models at lower prices, i.e. Lexus, BMW, Porsche with the Boxster, etc. Does quality and materials equate to a $4k chair...think about it?
They aren't making Ferrari Enzos....

Turbo11
Knoll, Cassina, and the others have suggested prices that all their dealers must adhere to. In the process, companies go a little overboard on overhead maybe, but bottomline is Knoll, Cassina, etc, are setting their dealers up for going out of business. What then? Rather than adjustments in prices that would certainly help these items convert better, it's holding firm to the existing pricing model, which is BROKEN.
This statement is so true they set those companies up for the big fall
Even Alpahaville the king of reproductions won't let there internet dealers discount useing the Alphaville brand stamped on there furniture .. a lot of them do, they just don't use the Alphaville stamp on the website and give you a discount if you ask rather than loose the sale
that is so hard to get, but NOT Herman
Miller or Knoll you the customer pay what the ticket says this 10 percent is such bull crap it is to attract people to the store but I feel so sorry for any one, self included.. who pays full tilt and I have .. so i am not the chosen one. I wish these companies would come to there sences like Turbo says with the car ideas . The sad thing and I am not against this in any way these wonderful designers have gotten there Royalty off there designs for at least 50 years so it
is hard to feel sorry for them.... (please no replys from purest about shame on me... and i don't need a lecture on how the world needs the proliforation of the Design concept to be kept pure and wholesum this is just a opion that helps all who really like design furniture and would like to save a little money trying to get it.)

Michaelangelo was paid for the Sistine Chapel
Art and design have always been business. Michaelangelo, Warhol, Hirst all made (and make) their livings off of their products.
Turbo - I agree that the pricing is difficult. However - an Eames chair retailed for $500 in 1956, which is equal to $3800 today. And collections like the Eames do have less expensive models. Unfortunately I dont have any resources to figure out the comparison of a Barcelona chair.
LRF - Again you and I find something to disagree about. With all due respect, I must inform you that I am not a woman. lol.

knockoffs are stealing
Using someone else's material on a term paper is plagiarism.
Using someone else's photography without permission is copyright infringement.
Falsely attributing artwork is forgery.
Passing off a fake product is fraud.
Altering someones art and still attributing them is an infringement of moral rights.
Videotaping a movie is bootlegging.
Passing a photocopied $20 bill is a felony.
These are all accepted limits and laws. Why is it any different with furniture?

The reason I participate in DA...
is that I want to contribute, at least in a small way, to a new seed bed of thinking in design that produces a new way of thinking about design that yields new designs and products. Grandiose, perhaps, but that's why I participate.
To be blunt, Miller and Knoll, et al are going to milk these old designs for all they are worth and while they are doing it they are going to be signing up new designers who embellish it rather than advance it. I think they are fine companies, but they are never going kill the goose that lays the golden egg, and what's more, they are going to market and promote in ways that perpetuate the furniture legacies they control, have long since recovered the cost of designing the furniture for, and are now simply promoting the heck out of to keep the show on Broadway another season so to speak. I repeat, this is no criticism of Miller and Knoll. They did the world a great service in recognizing great designers and making and marketing their products.
But we need new great designs that dilute the mesmerizing effect and price of these great old designs.
Knock-offs are one approach to escaping the high prices, but it is ultimately just a way of reinforcing the greatness of the great old designs. If all the lesser furniture makers are investing in knock offs, then they are not investing in new designs. Frankly, Miller and Knoll love knock-offs. Knock offs only hurt the unbranded item. They drive KNoll and Miller upmarket where the volume is smaller, but where the margins are fatter. As long as the lesser companies keep making knock offs and not developing new designers, Knoll and Miller can live very happily in this high end niche. Their gravy train will end only when new designer create new designs that people want more than the old ones and when other manufacturers get sick of the skimpy margins low esteem of knock-offs. The knock off makers are the companies who will one day take risks on new designers. But they won't do it until great new designers come up with great new designs that are unmistakeably more profitable to make than knock offs. In effect, that was what the modernists did when they embraced new materials that could be made alot cheaper and in alot larger volumes that great old Federalist or beaux arts style furniture. They made designs that made so much aesthetic, technological and commerical sense that lesser companies saw a market niche between conventional crap and then high end labor intensive, materials intensive designs that were part of the design and commercial legacy of the previous century or two.

Pt. 2
Who's got a big enough and powerful enough imagination to do it? Someone or some group does. Its inevitable. But it takes a seed bed of new thinking about new technologies and with a new sensibility. You can call the new whatever you want. But it needs an utterly contemporary philosohy "designed" to fit the circucmstances of the time.
The chit chat on this site is good to keep designers sane.
But the occassional exchange of real ideas about philosophy, aesthetics, process, and zeitgeist are what can lay down the epistemic infrastructure in small increments of what's next.
What's next, or better yet, what is feaasible and desirable but not being done right now, is always right under our noses.
But we need to look for it.

whats the point
i love design.
but honestly, i was under the impression that modern furniture was supposed to be accesible. I thought that this was the motiviating idea behind the whole modern movement.
like a computer, just becuas eit cost a gazillion dollars yesterday, doens't mean it should maintain that cost today.
thank goodness for knock offs.
good knock offs that is. do i expect to resell a knock off at a profit? no. do i expect to enjoy because its beautiful and functional? yes.
unless its the ORIGINIAL, gimme a break.