The Design Addict vase project (part 1)  

Koen, the small diameter of...
Koen, the small diameter of the rods implying important technical difficulties as you explains it well, wouldn' it be possible to cast the base like this (see drawing)? One would then be able to increase the diameter of the rods. In this case, the outside wall would not need to be 8 mm, it could be thiner to avoid the waste of material and to prevent the vase from being too heavy.
What diameter for the rods would be the technically acceptable for the casting?

I think that aesthetically, it would be a pity to make the rods look too thick, but one could slightly enlarge the size of the vase in order not to change too much the initial proportions and to answer to Martin's fears concerning its exiguity. By widening it, one would also gain in stability. In addition, I agree completely with the fact that it is necessary to reduce the number of rods.
Concerning your question about the top of the rods. I am keen about the version on the left below. The sharpen edges from the others sketches will probably chip to quickly, no?

Design band
Dear dcwilson, I really like the comparison with jazz. If I had to choose an instrument, I would choose the triangle, I would leave the sax and the bass to the virtuosos but the most important is that there is room for everyone in Design Addict' s Big Band. When will you offer us one of your famous solos?
Your wish to live the discussion in real time and to be able to interact on the same drawing is tempting, but there are not only technological constraints that would make this exercise difficult. The contributors are mostly Australian, Canadian, American and European people who live at different time zones and are not able to get away for this exercise at the same time.
In addition, even if some of you are very skilled, it is often necessary to take some time to think before reacting and making new proposals. And finally, the thread, in its current form has the advantage of being perennial, thousands of visitors will read it in the next months when it will be the most appropriate for them.
Let the jam session continue!

Hi Patrick
Could you post the other part of the sketch that also showed the ends of the rods. It would...I think clarify Robin's question.
On Robin's suggestion: The reason why the rods can not be cast in one piece with the rest (and not as a crown either) is that the slip shrinks while if dries. By the time the slip is dry enough to be taken out (which is far fron dry by the way) the shrick is already so substantial that some of the rods will have been broken off before you can take them out of the mould. The only way to do this is to give the rods an angle so that I can take part of the mould off while the soft rods are still supported by the other half of the mould. To do that would have to change the concept....see sketch.
I am also sending a sketch showing what an extruded version would look like...
Here are the sketches:

I'm inspired
Perhaps I should take a basic ceramics course to get a little hands on experience. Understanding the theory is one thing but the practical experience would be invaluable. Even a little slab construction should teach me something about shrinkage and fit. Thanks again Koen.
. . . and Patrick your latest drawing looks like an inside out vesion of what I was trying to describe.

Let's not forget the flowers
I actually do quite a bit of flower arranging (no snickering please) and there is one flaw in the basic design. The flowers/branches will tend to splay outward. There is no way to support anything standing straight and tall in the center of the vase. As is this will make an attractive but rather idiosycratic arrangement. This may not be important but we should give it a little thought.

I didn't suggest extruded...
I didn't suggest extruded aluminium! 🙂 I think thats a bad idea, this is a small project and dies etc are expensive, and powder coating isn't the cheapest either, not to mntion cutting all the excess material out, a thick length of tube with an array of ( curved ?)handtapped threads and rods would be cheaper.
I was thinking along the lines of a fluted column though, all in white, maybe a bit Fornasetti like? You say you want it to look good even without flowers in it. Or otherwise insert a contraption somewhat like that MOMA fruit bowl or similarly contstructed Italian clothes rack

Dear H.P.
I did not suggest that the material of your choice was aluminum, i just refered to the shape...which I would not have drawn if it was 'nt for the sketch you send to Patrick. (dcwilson only mentioned extrusion but did not included a shape, so I "borowed" yours to illustrate how it could be done.
I think we came to the point where you normally in the design process descide if the concept is worth persuing or not. Many objections especially James Collins' users experience seem to indicate some major "consumer resistance" So Patrick...anything that you learned from those comments and that you are willing to improuve upon??

Marketing-Selling
There is something that I see, but I don,t know how to explain it.
I see in the vase, one of those –very smart- objects, I imagine it in a competition, and with many possibilities of wining!!! I guess, it will be a design acquired by designers, but I have the sense that it isnt a –best seller- for bystanders. (about the first original drawing)
I have the sense, that they prefer simpler things, They,ll like it but as they are not familiar with it, they don,t "take the risk"(unless they saw it on tv, or if a friend tells them that’s the –LAST TREND-). Even if you explains how it works, they will begin to understand, but will choose a more traditional one.
BUT BUT BUT, whit the option of the rods, if you could take them out…I think it will work better.
With the rods you´ll make it "more friendly".
Two in one or three in one.
Flexibility
At the same time, I found it flexible, so you could do some changes, put longer rods, or may be shorter rods, if better.
I imagine a bystander asking –May I put just 6 instead of 12 rods? YES; you can!,
I imagine a bystander asking- It,s a gift for a friend of mine, and she is very traditional, May I use it without any rods?, -YES, you can, and you,ll also have the chance to use them when you want!
May be once acquired, it will be used in the same way, but It will be a selling argument, and you,ll always have the chance to have a –NEW- vase. Or make some corrections if needed.
I say this because I have a small shop and sell contemporary design objects to the general public, and wholesaler. And many of the design objects that likes to designers are not so –best seller—to general public. There are some articles about products that had won awards, but didn,t sold much.
But I think that the solution of the rods LINKS both sides.
PS: May be showing 2 or 3 prototypes to some general public will be near to the answer.

let me clarify...
... my reservations with the basic design. First it's beautiful, I would like it in my house. It's dynaic it's unusual it looks very "modern", like it's going to do something old but in a new way.
But analyzing it from the perspective of the end user it will lend itself to I think mainly a handful of arrangement "styles". With branches of flowers like dogwood or forsythis, or with a sharply geometric well ordered arrangement like a ring of perfect roses uniformly splayed around the rim or perhaps of graduated stem length to create a visual spiral. All these will be attractive and dramatic BUT

I think this design will not have the versatility of arrangements you can design in a big cylinder with a spiky wire flower frog. It's not what I would call an "everyday" vase. More like most of my ikebana vases that I use maybe once a year if that.
This is really a marketing choice but design does not happen in a vacuum. Now for me I would definately buy this vase cause I already have lots of vases but this adds something new to the mix. If however I was a pretty young thing again in my first apartment this would probably not be my choice for my only vase.
Maybe I shouldn't taint design with marketing needs but my partner is a marketing exec so I can't shake the influence.

nice nice nice
nice nice designs and topic but aren't we running before we learned how to walk?
1. 'design' is being innovative in form, function, use of material and concept.
2. an eventual design that is almost similar to the first concept probably isn't worth much
this said; what would be the purpose? to design a vase within this community. what would be the retail price? not important. (this means that all materials, moulds etc are possible). What would be the concept; as shown in the first pics; a vase with a 'divider' for the flowers. what form? this would be a though one; do we try an archetype vase (cilinder) or do we design it in a certain 'style' (trendsetting or trendfollowing?). what kind of material? something completely new and unseen or unexpected eg cardboard?
first have an idea/concept then think divergently and add a lot of new/other designs and sketches; then make some choices and think convergently. at the end keep some ideas and then try to put those in production or try to calculate a costprice.

Looking more closely
at Patrick's initial sketch of the vase with an arrangement in it, I notice that the stems of the flowering plant are branching ones. I can see that the vertical rods of the design would catch these Y-shaped branches and keep the material from drooping. But this would not happen with single-stem flowers, would it ?
I guess many vases are ideal for particular kinds of arrangements -- like the ikebana container above ?

Hello everybody,Sorry to...
Hello everybody,
Sorry to react so late, we had some technical problems with the site and I was busy taking care of them.
There are many relevant remarks in the last messages. It is really useful to have opinions from users and the opinion of Gustavo is very interesting because it anticipates the reaction of the consumer which is precious.
"And many of the design objects that likes to designers are not so - best seller -- to general public" this sentence is very important and I could often check it.
Koen and Gerrit are right, it is time of specify and guide the project. I will try to do it synthetically:
- Without a large approval and taking into account the relevant remarks of users, one should certainly not cling to my original proposal (which also has the inconvenience to be technically unrealizable). I will make a new proposal that will take into account the emitted remarks, but if somebody whiches to make other projects, they are naturally welcome. The various solutions already proposed by some of you can also be explored. The difficulty being not to explore to many directions at the same time.
So, to better clarify the project, here are the important points to keep in mind:
Function: A vase integrating a solution to make easier the organization of a floral arrangement with the possibility to stimulate the creativity of the user.
Technique: The vase has to be made in porcelain, stoneware or any other ceramic material. Note: It is not because Koen is a magician of ceramic that one must make things too difficult ; -)
Quantity: Small series of maximum 200 pieces which could be renewed if they met an important success.
Selling price and distribution: Still to be decided!
We don't have any obligation of obtaining a result. The quality of our exchanges and the teaching value of this thread are already a great result. Naturally it would be nice to be able to finalise the process. But, for that, Koen must be at ease with the final project, I do not want to force to him to work on an object that he doesn't like. It is also important that this vase obtains a large consensus from all of us.

This is the result of my...
This is the result of my thoughts taking into account your remarks:
STEP 1
I place these damned rods horizontaly to create a grid that makes it easier to arrange the flowers.
Here is a top view:

STEP 2
I open the center of the grid to be able to place flowers in the center.
STEP 3
I close the rods with a loop to avoid the agressive straight lines but also because I have another little idea.

STEP 4
I enlarge the top of the vase before you tell me that the grid is not stable 🙂 But also to get back to the large shape of a vase that allows the bouquet to open up harmoniously.

STEP 5
This is the grid under another angle:
STEP 6
I add to the conical vase an open base to reinforce the stability (because of DCWilson's cats) and because I still have my little idea.
I must confess that, for the moment, I am not very happy with the shape of the base.

STEP 7
It's much easier to see like that. The indents that hold the grid should probably be deeper.

STEP 8
A simulation with a bouquet now shows that the flowers can also be arranged outside of the vase. It's the kind of little twist that the artist that I am likes to add but I would totally undestand if designers find this idea completely stupid 😉
What about you?

V2
I like the original better. This seems more like the AO flower frog above in function:

Visually it's not nearly as strong as the original. You've also committed the design to multiple pieces that are mutually dependent. Lose/break one and the rest are useless.

Damn, I have such a bad cold...
Damn, I have such a bad cold I can't concentrate on anything else than staring at the pretty drawings. Patrick, which program did you use to draw the vase with?