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03-Jun-09 |
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Concrete countertops
Very soon I'll be remodeling my kitchen .. does anyone have concrete countertops in their kitchen .. is staining a big problem?
I love the natural,earthy appearance of concrete over Caesarstone but I'm hesitant as I don't want to be on "guard" to prevent staining, or scratching, I've been told staining is an issue but to what degree is the big question. Maybe someone here has experience w/ concrete.
A couple websites for concrete counters if anyone is interested: www.Chengdesign.com in california bay area seems great & Pourfolio.com in southern california.
Thanks!
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posted by
Zencat
edited on 03-Jun-09 06:17 PM [edit]
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03-Jun-09 |
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Do not buy them!
I have 90 sq. feet of concrete countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms. They are a mess. They IMMEDIATELY started to stain. Even toothpaste is leaving brown marks on the white bathroom counters. My island became horribly stained within a week just from the natural skin oil from my arms resting on it. I have been meticuous with these keeping these counters clean. But it doesnt seem to make a difference. And this is in a single professional's house without kids. I dont cook. In fact, I havent used the oven or cooktop EVER. The counters now are a mess. They have only been in place for about 1-2 yrs, at the most. They have hardly been used. I used supposedly reputable licensed contractors who specialize in concrete counters. They have even been on home tv shows. They tried to fix the island, but you can still see all the stains, and immediately it started staining again. I have now filed a complaint with the state. All the counters will have to be replaced and they were VERY expensive. I cannot recommend concrete counters in ANY capacity. Stay away!
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posted by
rockybird
edited on 03-Jun-09 09:39 PM [edit]
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22-Jun-09 |
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The concrete dilemma.
Rockybird, thank you so much for posting about your experience with concrete countertops, I'm sorry it turned into a mess! Now I'm wondering "if" the composition of the mix and the type of sealer used makes any difference.
A female contractor used a company named "Pourfolio" in San Diego who installed concrete counters in her kit/bathroom & she's very happy with them except citrus did stain hers, apparently it's a common staining substance. Also, spoke with a president of a design company who had concrete countertops installed in her kitchen & again - citrus stained them. She seemed to justify it by saying it adds to the patina over time, whatever right?!
Pourfolio does have a good reputation & my husband & I visted his warehouse twice, I'm confident in his work and his method but evidentally the material is going to stain regardless unless an expoxy type finish is used & then it ruins the natural appeal of concrete.
Love the appearance, and want them BUT, like you I don't want to be sorry after spending 3k more than caesar stone.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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22-Jun-09 |
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I wouldn't read too much into Rockybird's comments
hyou did notice he said 'white countertops' didn't you. Concrete is porous. White is a really bad choice. I have deep grey, a slightly darkened version of concrete's natural tone. I've had them for 7 years now and they look wonderful. They are also easily resurfaced if you get a bad stain. I love them. We paid no more for them than we would have if we had done granite.
Rockybird, I suggest you have the countertops cleaned and stained a darker color. You made an unfortunate choice and your concrete contractor was remiss in not letting you know how hard it would be to maintain white concrete.
http://www.concretenetwork.com/?p=Websites&gclid=COTRpo6-npQ...
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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22-Jun-09 |
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concrete Saga.. contin
Hi Olive,
Thanks for pointing out the difference with rockybirds countertops.
So much controversy on Concrete tops...confusing, Pourfolio company says whites good stains can be bleached. But I totally follow what your saying - even a speck of a substance would pop on white.
Someone said dark colors show up citrus stains more.
I posted earlier asking about the marine silicone sealant finish, it sounds magical & it must be extremely durable since you haven't stains after 7 yrs.
Appreciate your encouragement for them. I'd go for it in a heart beat if I knew they'd be protected like yours .. 7 yrs is excellent.
My kitchen remodel includes either white, or off white (softer tone) cabinetry - slab style door with clean minimal hardware. We're very attracted to concrete for it's earthier softer appearance compared to Caesar stone which seems a bit more sterile, pure. Concrete could be a nice counterpoint to the modern monolithic island/wall of cabinetry. The floors will be wood so that'll bring in some warmth too.
The downside monetarily is concrete costs $2-3 thousand more than Caesar stone.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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22-Jun-09 |
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Stains
Concrete does stain and mine are no exception. Citrus and eggwhites are particularly tough. BUT, since concrete is porous, what goes in can come out. We just scrub off the stain and reseal as needed. The marine stain is the best stuff to use. I really don't know the name of mine as my installer gave me a big just of it but it's not the original container and is just labeled 'concrete stain, mix 1:10 with water'.
Also, concrete is a surprisingly warm-looking surface. Even the grey is warm. It has a mottled appearance and look more like soapstone. I am surprised that you are being told that you'll pay $2-3K more than ceasarstone, we didn't.
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Cost of concrete vs. Caesar stone
Olive, I do like the mottled appearance of the concrete. Pourfolio offers it without as well. If we go with it we'll chose a midtone grey, have a sample we like.
The cost is a lot higher than Ceasar stone especially when installing vertical panels down the cabinet sides to meet the floor.
The estimate included 3 vertical panels of concrete, total cost about 8,600. Island 84" length, width 38" and a back countertop 134 inches length.
Identical application in Ceasar stone runs 3k less.
It's ridiculously expensive that way.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Stains
Hi Olive,
I know ... so many questions here but I'm trying to find out as much info as possible before making any final decisions.
Regarding the concrete stains,so your saying they can easily be scrubbed off & simply apply fresh sealer on top of it?? That sure sounds like an easy quick fix.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Actually...
Most of my counters are grey - kitchen counters and island. The master bath is white. I was told by the contractor not to put white in the kitchen, but it is fine for the bath. The guest bath is brown. They are all staining terribly and I dont even cook. I have heard this complaint from many people. In fact, in my city, there are people who go around stripping and resealing concrete counters professionally due to the large numbers of problems people are having. I was warned not to go with concrete and I would not listen. Now I wish I had. I will never go with concrete again. These counters cost $100 a sq. foot. and at over 90 sq. feet, this was not cheap. I was told it would cost $89 an hour to strip and reseal and that some of the stains are not fixable. These stains cannot be "scrubbed off." After one week, the island was covered in stains. It took them 2+ days to strip and reseal it, and they still left visible stains. It is staining again. Tomorrow I am meeting with the state to look at the counters.
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posted by
rockybird
edited on 23-Jun-09 01:29 AM [edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Concrete ...
Rockybird, you do have grey, interesting.
Could it be, I wonder, what goes into the actually cement mixture has some bearing on the amount of protection from staining? It seems each company has their own method of combining substances, etc.
In my area I visited 2 manufacturers and each seem to approach it a bit differently. One doesn't recommend the penetrating type of sealers although it lends a nice luster it does not protect against staining they say, whereas the other company says the opposite.
It's baffling ... some people still rave about them without having much trouble, perhaps a minimal amount of stain but nothing major and others such as yourself run into a nightmare situation with it. Yikes!
Too bad there isn't some kind of regulation to protect the consumers. There are such varied experiences with the concrete it makes it hard to judge.
From a design standpoint we really want them ...however, I could deal with a faint amount of staining but certainly not glaring obvious stains, now that would bug me.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Curious.. no cookin/concrete
Rockybird, curious, you don't cook... well,what kind of stains do you have on the countertops??
I do cook but if I didn't I'd imagine the countertops would stay in good shape. Thanks.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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stains
I suspect it is the sealant that is bad. But it apparently is a common problem. I spoke with someone who reseals concrete countertops and he said he just stripped and resealed an entire restaurant in which the counters were terribly stained. But even then, you cant always get rid of the stains.
These counters stained just from normal skin oils from my elbows resting on them. They have numerous rings from cups sitting on them. They have stains from things spilling under the microwave. Stains from the frosting on a granola bar that landed on the counter. The bathroom counters are stained from toothpaste! I am a single person and I have never used the new cooktop or oven that I put in. I do use the microwave for tv dinners. I am scared to death of these counters and quickly clean anything that touches them. I dont have anything on the bathroom counters except my toothbrush and toothpaste. Even the liquid soaps I keep in the sink basin. All lotions, etc. get used directly from a drawer and not placed on a counter.
The person who did my counters trained with Cheng. I would hope that my experience is not typical of all concrete counters, but it is obviously common enough that I was warned by numerous people not to put in concrete because of this problem. The counters are truly beautiful and very modern otherwise. But the stains ruin them. They have been in the house 1-2 yrs. and there is no way I can sell the house with these in place. They will have to be replaced.
Below is a link to how they looked less than a year ago. I should add pics to show you how they look now.
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/jeschbacher/counters0...
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posted by
rockybird
edited on 23-Jun-09 04:24 AM [edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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they will stain
It is a fact. Some call it patina. With pristine surfaces elsewhere that is not
such a bad thing? Just the nature of materials. Butcher block, cork floors,
vintage furniture. Each and every material has its do and don't. An aggressive
house guest took a scrubbie to a new stainless cooktop when a damp cloth
would do the job. Another set a hot pot on a leather dining chair. Some should
just stay out of the kitchen. I have a forbidden few.
I had butcher block and concrete in my last kitchen. I used the book linked
below. The concrete was used on a side counter and held up well but did gain
a bit of character over the 10 years. Mostly used as a computer desk.
It is a lovely material and should be embraced for what it is. Look at the floors at
your local big box store or Ikea. Beautiful. Stains and all.
funny review on Amazon about the book linked
"Drinking too much? A concrete countertop may be the answer! Wine, even in relatively small amounts, left on the countertop will rapidly etch and discolour the surface you laboured so long and hard to produce. The proud owner of a concrete countertop soon learns that a hangover is hardly the only thing that remains after the party ends. You'll reminisce about the good times you've had as you survey the rings and semicircles that each glass or bottle leaves, and the imbiber soon learns to moderate his consumption in the interests of maintaining perpetual vigilance. ...And, the resulting surface is even more prone to damage from citrus than wine, so that fashionable but fey diet with lots of fruit will soon be a thing of the past, replaced by a healthy preference for beefsteak and blood sausage. "
http://www.amazon.com/Concrete-Countertops-Design-Finishes-p...
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posted by
rockland
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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Weird...
My countertops have not been even remotely like all of the negative comments above. I'd say my satining issues are no worse that a ring that develops of wood surfaces that have been varnished. And a heck of a lot easier to remove. I just buff them with a srrubbie sponge. Once and a while, maybe 2-3 times a year I'll scrub a bit more vigorously and then apply some of the sealant. Honestly I think these are so easy to care for. Some companies out there must really be making inferior products. I also have a concrete bath tub and it's been just fine too!
People have concrete floors done all the time, and yet I've never heard all the b*itchin' and moaning about floor being really easy to stain. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned there?
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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posted by
Jyri Snellman (FIN)
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23-Jun-09 |
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Non Sequiter
Jyri, what has that got to do with concrete countertops?
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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I actually agree with you...
I actually agree with you Olive.
Properly cared for and sealed, it is a good durable surface.
But not for everyone.
My present home is '62 original top to bottom.
The real estate agent pointed out all the lovely updates we could do.
Gave us business cards. : )
Our only changes have been updating appliances.
Countertops are a big expense and not easily replaced.
Such a porous surface should come with a good maintenance plan as you
had.
Irresponsible to leave a homeowner with a surface that stains with arm sweat.
I had a copper counter in a rental in Texas. Just the bar area. I thought i
ruined it but the owner laughed over the phone and said to wipe it down
with ketchup. There is a solution for every surface i suppose...
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posted by
rockland
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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I guess you're right
We've had absolutely no problems with our concrete countertops. Nada, zip, zilch. We have really loved them and the big concrete tub has also been a blast. It even got published in a coffee table book about modern bath design.
That being said though, I don't think we'll use concrete for the counters in our new home in New Mexico. Concrete flooring is used often there as it's a perfect choice for radiant heat flooring, which is the norm and for staying cool in the warmer months. We noticed that here in Massachusetts, during the summer, our cats would nap in the tub or on the counters when we weren't looking. It's a nice friendly surface and it is a marvelous heat sink. Warm when you want warm, cool when you want cool.
We're thinking about silestone, ceasarstone or possibly paperstone next. For a year or so we'll be in a rental so we'll se what that comes with and if we like it. Granite is out for me and so is marble or butcherblock. Stainless steel is a possibility, but it's so unforgiving and easily scratched. And copper would just give me a headache.
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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23-Jun-09 |
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I do remember your tub! I've...
I do remember your tub! I've always wanted to make a cocoon like square box
tub out of concrete.
Good luck with the move. Smart to rent and get your bearings.
I like the idea of finding the sweet piece of land with a small dwelling.
Something livable but room for an addition that lets you use all that you
have learned over the years. Very exciting adventure.
Many more options now than when i tried to build 15yrs ago.
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posted by
rockland
[edit]
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27-Jun-09 |
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Concrete bathtub....
Olive, what is the name of the book & author? I'd love to see your concrete tub. Also, what page are you on??
Lastly, I know you've got grey countertops, just curious what color cabinetry do you have?
Loved Santa Fe, traveled to New Mexico 18 yrs ago, very beautiful.
Still mulling over the concrete vs. Ceasar stone.
thanks..
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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27-Jun-09 |
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Gosh, on the 'This Old House'
New Orleans project two years ago, they chose a type of resin countertop made from broken glass. They went to the factory where it's made, and I was impressed at the strength and beauty of this material. Apparently this type of material is made from recycled materials, is strong and doesn't require any special care.
I went to the TOH website and couldn't find that exact episode, but at that time, I decided that when I do over my countertops, I won't be using fragile and problematic materials like concrete or granite.
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posted by
barrympls (USA)
[edit]
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27-Jun-09 |
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Cheng concrete
Rockybird, I found out some very interesting info from the sales manager at Cheng. Apparently Cheng trains people in his method but he kepts the formula confidential, in other words he doesn't give away all of his secrets, I was told. Perhaps the secret is related to the protective application, maybe a substance used within the concrete mixture to help protect the surface.
Thanks for sharing your photos. The island top has a beautiful sheen & looks nice although I can't see any stains on it.
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posted by
Zencat
[edit]
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27-Jun-09 |
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Why not concrete
Olive, given how much you love your concrete countertops why aren't you going to use them again in your New Mexico home?
We're curious!
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posted by
Zencat
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28-Jun-09 |
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Reading and Comprehension 101, zencat
Reread what I wrote, the answer is there. Concrete floors AND concrete countertops? A bit much,no?
The book is:
Complete Bathroom Design, Holly Harrison & Sarah Lynch, Quarry Press, 2004.
Our tub's on page 16
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posted by
Olive (USA)
[edit]
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29-Jun-09 |
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pics
Those pics are when they were new. I will have to post pics of later. The island started staining within a week. The state already was out here and said that they are improperly sealed. And they will have to be stripped and resealed (this is the third time for the island now).
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posted by
rockybird
[edit]
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29-Jun-09 |
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Concrete Countertops and More
It looks like lots of people have provided good info so far. I'll throw my 2cents in as well with a twist.
We had concrete countertops installated a year ago and they are wonderful. They look great, wear great and are unique. Anyone who seems them, raves about them.
That said, their are some caveats I tell people about.
1) You do have to reapply wax to them occasionally to help protect them. Some place say once a month. We only do it once every 4 months or so and they are great. No stains.
mor importantly
2) You can't be a slob. If you have people in the family who don't clean up spills right away then stay away from concrete. This includes food prep, wine, spilled coffee when pouring, toothpaste etc. If you can't take a few seconds to proctect your investment then get soemthing else.
My wife and I have gotten so hooked on concrete that we've started building our own table tops. So far we've build 7, all for outdoor use.
We're in Nova Scotia, Canada, so these things see harsh weather. One was set out last summer as a test to see how it would do over the winter. It looks as good today as it did a year ago.
We just built 6 more deck tables using decorative glass aggregate and have just put them outside as well. Our next project will be kitchen table top that is 54 X 54 inches square. Before I tackle that one, though, I'm looking around to find a lighter concrete mix I can experiment with. At 150 pounds per cubic foot, that table will weight about 500 pounds. A bit much I think.
Cheers............Dan
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posted by
DD in NS
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29-Jun-09 |
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I agree with you totally!
Being naturally tidy persons, cleaning up our messes has been no problem for me or the hubs. We also reseal about 2-3 times a year and don't find it to be onerous. Other stones require that kind of treatment too.
I've found that acid, oils, and high protein, ie: fruit juices, tomatoes, olive oil, or eggs, are particularly likely to cause stains. But I've also found that a few seconds with a scrubbie pad removes them. When I notice I've made a stain, then I know it's time for a quick scrub and reseal. Takes me 15-30 mins or so do my whole kitchen. Since I seem to be able to keep my toothpaste in the sink, we've not had to reseal our bathroom counter even once in the entire 7 years we've had the concrete installed. The tub since it gets daily use is not the same kind of sealant anyway. It is sprayed on and left to dry. I do it once every year or so, cuz we can't use that shower for about 48 hours. 24 to dry it out and 24 to dry the sealant. If we go away for a weekend or vacation, I do it before we go.
As for the weight issue. You'll likely have to form your own mix. As someone said above, Cheng holds on to his secrets. You can buy his mix, but that's pretty energy intensive to ship to Nova Scotia. Our contractor used shale and shredded plastic to lighten the aggregate up. That's what you really need to be concerned with, the aggregate.
Concrete is good stuff, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks so!
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posted by
Olive (USA)
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29-Jun-09 |
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Readying glitch...... Olive
Ok. Sorry. Call it a laspse in memory, or a dyslexic blip! Yes concrete floors & countertops would be over kill!
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posted by
Zencat
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29-Jun-09 |
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Two cents on concrete
Great! I'm sold! My husband & I seem to constantly return to the option of concrete countertops even in the face of horror stories which seems nuts but we really prefer a material that's unique & Caesar stone just doesn't turn us on like concrete.
Design wise our new kitchen cabinets will be off white & very clean & sleek so we definately want to knock it down a bit by using concrete to lend a softer earthier feel to the design. Caesar Stone is nice but to sterile for what we need to achieve.
It's good to hear the positive experiences,thanks Dan.
Not being a slob & cleaning up spills & such sounds key.
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posted by
Zencat
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30-Jun-09 |
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posted by
Zencat
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